When to give up on a "Tippy" Kayak - P&H Bahiya

A few weeks ago I bought a used, but pristine, 2004 glass P&H Bahiya. I’m 6’4" 165lbs with a size 13 shoe and had been feeling like my poly Tempest 170 was requiring me to lean too much in order to put the boat on edge. I would classify myself as an intermediate paddler and was on the hunt for something that was a better fit to grow my skills in. I’ve probably paddled the Bahiya for 10 hours so far. On calm days, the Bahiya feels like a good purchase. Fast, graceful, easy to edge, somewhat stable, but as soon as any turbulent water rolls in, I feel hopeless. It twitches with the smallest chop, I tense up, I relax my lower body, it twitches, I tense, and so on in a negative feedback loop. When this happens, conditions that would be completely unremarkable in my Tempest leave me determined to sell the Bahiya as soon as I limp my way back to shore.

Today, I got the Bahiya out on the water and turned back after 15 minutes, drove home, picked up my Tempest and enjoyed a nice, if not as exciting, paddle. At this point, I don’t know if I’m just preemptively anticipating the unpredictability of the boat and tensing up, or if it really just is that tippy for my build. Probably both.

In either case, my questions are: What are the odds this gets better if I stick with it? I’m happy to put in the work and progress my self, but I’m worried the physics aren’t on my side. If I were to sell it and try something else, where would you recommend I look? Maybe the Cetus? I had my eye on an Impex Assateague, but I’m not confident that will be any easier to edge than the Tempest. Ultimately, I’m looking for an all-arounder here (day paddles and expeditions), but don’t want to feel like I’m in a barge that I have to lean to get on edge.
Thanks!

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I’m on the 3rd iteration of the same question sort of. I have a boat I violated my primary principal when I bought it.
I didn’t paddle it or even sit in it.
Compared to the Tarpons I’ve paddled for years, it is on the spooky side. I’ve successfully paddled it several times but only on flat water.
It cost more than any boat I’ve owned. I’ve tried to sell it but no success. I’ve tried several slight mods to make it more comfortable. I’m hoping the latest one will ẁork.

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I had not heard of that P&H model so I looked it up online.
Here’s a vid I found.

Overall the shaping and hull design doesn’t seem all that tippy as compared to kayaks I have used, and a few I still own now. Now, one man can’t say what the “feel” of a kayak is for another man, but in my few years of kayaking with many different kayaks, I have learned a lot about technique and performance of different types of hulls.

If you’d like to chat and exchange info one on one, please feel free to PM me

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You need to spend lots more time on more textured water. It sounds like you didn’t capsize so you’ll probably get used to a boat with less primary stability than the tempest. Leave your skirt off and go play in small breaking waves, use your low brace, keep a paddle in the water when it feels “twitchy”, find some standing waves in a shallow outlet, find some haystacks to learn to dance with the boat. Learn to bongo slide leaning into the waves and using a low brace.

It sounds like your problem is more fear of capsizing than inability to stay upright, so go out and capsize 50 times in shallow water, parallel to breaking waves, forcing the boat to go past the secondary stability level. You’ll get a feel for when the boat is going to go over and how to prevent it.

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I have no experience with the P&H Bahiya. But I have experience with the WS Zephyr and P&H Cetus, so can give you some comparison, in case that might help a little, only since you mentioned it as a possible option for you. I am 6 ft, 215 lbs.

My first boat was the Zephyr. Fun boat, easy to edge, fun in waves. Easy to turn. Nice glide. Sitting still it was quite twitchy, and in waves sitting still, I had to pay attention to my balance. Moving it was fine, very stable in waves, just keep moving, just a little and you are fine. And I could not do a cowboy re entry in it, just too unstable for me.

I read a lot about the Cetus, then went up to give one a good on water test, shout out to Marshal at River Connection, great person to work with!

It was amazingly stable, with better glide and more maneuverability than the Zephyr. Sit still in waves and take photos, no worries mate. No need to think about balance. Cowboy re-entry? Hey, let’s raise the bar another notch and play around on the deck, sliding around, rotating, turning around, etc.

While I liked the Zephyr, and could have easily kept it, I realized that the Cetus does everything better than the Zephyr, so the Zephyr would only provide the poly construction, not anything performance wise. At 72 years old, I have no need to have a poly boat that is not as much fun to paddle in my quiver. YMMV.

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I would say that it depends on your aspirations as a paddler. Are you chasing performance goals? Are you taking clinics and lessons with real certified instructors and coachs? Are you getting out a min of 3X / week with a focus on drills and technique?

If the answer to the above is “no”, if this is a recreational thing for you, then why beat yourself up? You are probably spending a lot of energy staying upright instead of executing an efficient forward stroke. If you don’t have the ability to rotate with authority you are hindering your progress.

The tippiest boats out there are Olympic K1s used in sprint. For a new paddler the progression is this: you spend the first season bracing and swimming, second season you get to the point where you can start to move the boat with authority and you may raise your seat height, by the third season you start to be competitive.

When I considered answering I first looked at your profile, which is blank. Without having context, the answer will remain with how strong your dedication is, and what your goals are.

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I feel your pain. I sat in mine, but didn’t paddle it. I was being ambitious and might have bitten off more than I can chew. Only time will tell in both our cases, but I’ll be hoping your latest mod takes. What’s the boat you’re trying to make the jump to and what made you buy it?

Thanks! This video was part of my pre-purchase research and helped me feel comfortable that the Bahiya could be a good choice. It really is a gorgeous boat. Hopefully I can make it work for me.

Thanks for the response. I think you’re spot on here when it comes to fear of capsizing, but I want to share a bit about that fear for others who might read this thread. I actually did capsize in the Bahiya, but it was during a failed sculling brace. In other words, it was somewhat expected and has nothing to do with the stability of the boat. The upside, is that I had no problem, other then beating up my legs, self rescuing.

There are two reasons I fear capsizing that aren’t the fear of being upside down, stuck, or unable to get back in the boat:

  1. I worry that capsizing will confirm and reinforce that I chose the wrong boat and I can’t paddle it
  2. I often paddle where there are folks in a park along shore, and I worry that they will think I’m in some distress if they see me go over (especially since I usually paddle alone)

That said, your advice still feels spot on in terms of what I need to do. Just wanted to share in case others in this thread deal with the same concerns.

Thanks, this is all fair and appreciated. I’m a long-time reader, first-time poster, who set up this account to ask this question. I paddle year-round, twice a week. I like to paddle to get into nature and explore, and want to improve my skills in order to unlock more environments/conditions to explore in. I’m not trying to be the best at anything, but want to build skills to feel capable, comfortable, and efficient as I take trips (mostly day trips, but the occasional multi-day).

I’d probably stay with the Tempest if I didn’t have to lean so much to edge it, and if it were a little more efficient moving forward. At this point, I feel like the Tempest may be reinforcing bad habit.

My guess is that the Bahiya is the tool that is hindering skill development. If you are timid in that boat you won’t get to the place where you are exploring upper / lower body separation. Without that fundamental you have nothing - no real forward stroke, sweeps, rudder, roll, etc.

Skill development will be a matter of deliberate and purposeful practice, as defined by Dr Anders Ericsson. I highly suggest getting instruction.

Best to you.

I have the Bahiya and had the same “twitchy” issues that you’re having. I’m a bit lightweight for it (145-150) and found that for loaded touring it was much more comfortable. The factory seat also holds you a good ways off the hull. I found removing it and using an aftermarket seat the sits on the hull to make it significantly more stable. I have since switched to paddling a surfski (Epic V9) and consider its stability to be comparable to the Bahiya. It took a good while for me to get comfortable in waves on the surf ski, but now that I am the Bahiya feels solid to me as well and I have re-installed the factory seat…not that you need to use a surf ski, I’m just suggesting that others’ recommendations of spending more time in it will likely make you more comfortable in it. It’s a nice boat, but you’ll need to decide if the learning curve is worth it to you.

As a side note: The back of the factory seat is suspended from the coaming while the front of the seat has “feet” that rest on the hull. On my boat I found very significant wear underneath those front feet when I removed the seat. I patched those spots with a few layers of fiberglass and epoxy. It would be worth pulling your seat out to check, just remove the bolt on each side. I can send pictures if you would like them.

Side note 2, I have mine listed for sale. …just too many boats in the fleet and I spend most of my time on a surf ski now.

Mark

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After reading this, you might want to look at a different boat:
https://paddlingmag.com/boats/boat-review-the-bahiya-by-p-h/

Check where your heels sit on the hull too, I wore thru the hull with mine. Keep that sand out.

I’ve paddled two boats that gave me that sensation. The first was a Scirocco (Current Design, I believe). Virtually no chines. At first I found it squirrelly as all get out, but quickly adapted to it and came to love it. I sold it in a downsize a couple years ago in favor of a Romany, and wish I had kept it.
The second was a NDK Greenlander. That thing had chine written all over it, and try as I might I could never relax into it. I could keep the Sirocco on edge all day and still be relaxed in it - not so the Greenlander.
So I guess my message is to not give up - push yourself to the edge (and over!) - but realize that in the end it may not be the boat for you.

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There’s probably a really good chance it will get better if you stick with it. It’s hard to know how many hours it might take. But some frequent consistent practice will make a big difference. SeaDart’s advice of taking it into waves will make a big difference too.
I really like the Bahiya. It just has a feel to it that it sounds like you are appreciating on flat water. To me it feels sleek and just very much at one with me, edging really easily as you mention. I don’t think it has race speed, but it has super-easy glide at a fast touring pace. It really shines at keeping speed padding into wind and waves. It’s from a different generation of design philosophy. I would suggest the main goal was to design a kayak that excelled at seafaring in all of the sea’s states, versus excelling in a park and play zone with a bow so proud to fight trough submerging that it comparatively feels like pushing a plow. There was a time when to see people edging and maneuvering sea kayaks well was awe-inspiring. For me, that was a fun challenge. I still love to paddle a fast, more hard-tracking kayak through twisty salt marsh creeks where deep edges and well-executed and solidly planted maneuvering strokes require you to feel the effort, but if done well, allow you to glide right through all the twists and turns. Some people get frustrated by it. I feel motivated by it and get a real feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction from it. And the Bahiya just has a really satisfying feeling for this.
I think the P&H Sirius fell within the same general design philosophy, and held solid popularity for a good number of years. I remember feeling what you’re feeling with my Sirius when I bought it. It was hard to imagine that I could ever just be comfortable in it. Just small little waves and I would feel that twitch. I had read and heard a lot of people comment that it felt more secure as the waves got bigger. My experience is that these small little wavelets would make me feel that twitch, and I would have the nervous reaction that you describe. I knew, I just knew intuitively, that if small waves felt twitchy, a bit bigger waves would feel twitchier, and big waves would feel out of control. But that wasn’t the case. I felt all the twitch I was ever going to feel with the small waves, and as waves got bigger, there was no increase in twitchiness. With a little time and less of my own uneasiness, the twitchiness was gone. And I think this is where SeaDart’s advice comes in. Get out and feel how waves actually act on your hull, and when you discover how the kayak actually reacts to pushy waves, you’ll be able to relax in conditions that were causing trepidation and twitchiness.
When I got my Bahiya, I had already gone through this with the Sirius, and it felt comfortable for me right away. There is just a little more width in the seat in the Bahiya than the Sirius, and I appreciated this, and it’s one of those kayaks that was perfectly comfortable for me as it came. It’s got a touch more secondary stability than the Sirius. But they are the same 20 1/2" wide specification-wise. The Bahiya is faster than the Sirius, and although I enjoy them both, the Bahiya just holds a special place for me. I have several sea kayaks to choose from, but I even declared one summer the Summer of Bahiya, as I realized halfway through that I was loading up the Bahiya so much more than any of my other sea kayaks, and enjoying seeing what I could do with it in surf and rough water seafaring.
I’ve most recently gone through this type of adjustment with an Epic V10 surfski. But having gone through it before, I was confident that it was possible, and this seems to make a big difference. The muscles in my core that engage for balance needed to tighten up some. The edging that I both do and just allow without noticing in the Bahiya is too relaxed for the V10. After committing good time in the V10, I then realized that I had tightened up and needed to relax more in my sea kayaks, as I wasn’t engaging my edges in rough water as much. It turns out just realizing it was all I really needed to get back to dipping my edges deeper in my sea kayak.
I think I had a similar breakthrough in my V10 to what I had back when I bought my Sirius. There seemed to be a leap. I’m out and focusing on my forward stroke, making sure I’m feeling that pull, and working to ignore that little twitch in the boat so that it doesn’t trigger a corresponding twitch or tensing in my body. The twitch is there, it’s there, I’m hesitating here and there, it’s still there…and then one day I’m paddling and I notice that this tiny little twitch is happening to my boat, but I’m not reacting. I’m comfortably settled through it all. The core is now tightened up and providing unconscious micro-reactions, and there’s no need to even think about bracing.
A little stubbornness here will yield a great deal of satisfaction, and frankly, a nice jump in overall paddling skill level. It’s one of those where if you can see your way through it and continue paddling, I highly recommend it. If it keeps you off the water, not so much.
I had a solid roll when I bought the Sirius and Bahiya. It took me 4 two-hour sessions to develop a solid roll on both sides that has worked in all of my kayaks - whitewater and sea. And I find the Bahiya rolls easily. For me, it took much more time than that on the water for the twitchiness to disappear in the Sirius. But if you can capsize and scramble back into the Bahiya, I think that is much more challenging than staying upright, and much more challenging than rolling. You’ve probably got a good foundation for working through it.

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My guess is that you’re too light for it, and especially if the seat is already high, you’ll be sitting too high off the water and that will make it feel less stable.

Put 15 pounds in the boat, paying attention to trim, to resolve.

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Thanks, Mark! Nice to hear your journey (and the tip on seat wear). I’d appreciate the photos mentioned if you have them . Also, do you mind sharing what aftermarket seat you went with?

Thanks, I really appreciate your response. It speaks directly to both what I’m feeling out there and why I continue to be drawn to the boat. My experience in it so far makes me feel like it’s within reach given enough time, but my physical nervousness is trending negatively. This feels like a mind over matter situation, and the idea that the twitchiness doesn’t scale with wave height will be useful for staying cool. Similarly, knowing that there’s the potential for an “other side” and way through the twitchiness given time really helps.

Sounds like I’ve got some work to do in putting SeaDart’s advice into action and this will give me some peace of mind as I work at it.

Oh yeah and one more thing. Wear a helmet when playing in waves.

If you have been reading here for a long time you probably recognize that there are a lot of self proclaimed experts who tend to be very vocal, as well as very experienced paddlers who are likely less dogmatic. Don’t let the "experts "talk you out of the opportunity to improve your skills and find new experiences. It’s just a nice boat, as long as you don’t damage it, you can likely sell it for close to what you paid for it.

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