When to give up on a "Tippy" Kayak - P&H Bahiya

Duly noted on both accounts, thanks! What would a board be without the personalities, right?

I got out there this morning (first time out since I posted this topic) on the hunt for some conditions to play in. While there wasn’t a lot to find today, save some light wavelets and small rolling swell, I was a lot more comfortable in that mindset of “go find the conditions.” Any wave I could find, I put myself broadside to it, sometimes letting it roll under me and feeling it, other times getting to a #2 edge both towards and (for fun) away from the face of it. It’s going to take some time and more severe conditions, but it was a fun morning, and that’s all I need it to be right now.

Also helpful was a response I got from Brian over at Kitchi-Gami recommending I loosen up the fit a bit. (Thanks also to jyak for sending over a discussion with a similar approach to the Bahiya) Seems like I may have had myself in too tight because I was concerned that using the Yakima foot braces all the way forward beyond the last notch would damage the boat. Putting them all the way forward gives me a fit similar to what I’m used to in the Tempest 170. I might foam out the bulkhead in time, but I can see that one of the foot brace track bolts is already stripped, so who knows if I can get them out.

But more to your point, this boat, when it feels good, feels too good to me not to figure out how to paddle it. And the skills and comfort I’ll have to build to get there are all worth having for my own satisfaction, even if it’s just for the sake on making my minor excursions that much more enjoyable in the ways CapeFear described earlier. Thanks again for the encouragement!

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I love weaving in and out of obstructions and going under overhanging branches and through tight openings along deep lake edges in my sea kayak. Using various strokes and edging to make the required turns. It’s like the kayak is a partner in an intricate dance. Also playing in rough water is the same kind of fun reading the surface structure and popping over stuff and surfing etcetera. It improves paddling awareness that is more interesting than flat water. I do like flat water too but then it’s more about traveling and forward strokes. I find a sensitive kayak gives more feedback about the water.

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Totally agree. For me, going straight from point A to point B is a last resort. I’m happier if there are some twists, turns, and features along the way. I can do these things with the Tempest, but for me, it feels like I’m dragging that partner you mention along for the ride. With the Bahiya, it might be more excited to do that twisting and turning than I’m able to be right now, but I hope to catch up.

We need to be free to pick and enjoy our challenges. A lot can be learned faster from classes, but there’s a certain pleasure in feeling out the conditions and figuring it out on your own.



Not sure if I’ll be successful uploading these, but if so:

  1. The “seat” pic shows the seat removed from the kayak.
  2. The “front edge” pic shows how the it doesn’t sit evenly on the hull
  3. The “wear points” pic shows where it had worn into the hull

You can see my as yet un-sanded patches. It’s tempting to use a marine caulk to glue down the front edge of the seat, both to better distribute the load and to keep the sand out from under it. I probably won’t though because as is the seat actually pivots on the rear hanger bolts during lay-back rolls, lifting the front edge, making it easier to, well, lay back… Probably not necessary, but cool. As others have stated, I’ll have to be more diligent keeping the sand cleaned out.

I’ll grab a pic of the after market seat I used this afternoon. It’s currently in a different boat at another location.

I know nothing about the Bahiya, but I can comment on the Cetus MV, which I have been paddling for years. I’m 6’ and 185 lbs. It is easy enough to edge or lean, but not a boat that is conducive to dancing in waves and tide race (the model I have is a rather heavy fiberglass layup; at over 60 lbs, I’ve noticed that my friends all disappear when it’s time to carry our boats back to the car :roll_eyes:), although that hasn’t stopped me from trying. Very solid secondary stability makes it extremely sea-worthy, loaded or not, in 3+ foot waves, 30+ kt following seas, and confused seas.

As to your concerns about capsizing, I completely agree with another commenter that practice capsizing will likely help you determine whether it’s really the wrong boat. As far as making onlookers nervous: I practice self- and assisted rescues in public all the time. Most people either ignore it or just watch with curiosity; occasionally someone will approach me and ask if I’m ok. I just give them a thumbs up and a smile, thank them, and say “I’m fine, just practicing.”

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This is great, thanks for sharing! Glad you caught it when you did. I’ll be curious to remove mine and inspect for wear based on this. I wonder if we have a different gen seat. Mine looks like what I believe P&H now calls their “performance seat” and sits on a mini cell wedge that runs fore to aft with another mini cell foam strip along the front underside of the seat. I wonder if the feet you mention are behind there. Only one way to find out! Was your seat position adjustable? I think I read that the first gen was adjustable, but not the 2nd.

If you haven’t tried this yet, spend some time at the dock exploring the boat’s stability. Hold onto the dock while seated in the boat and heel over to a variety of angles and note the amount of force you need to exert with your knee to right yourself. Maybe there is a lower secondary stability that you haven’t engaged yet. It won’t make the tippy go away but should give you peace of mind and allow you to then practice your bracing above and down into that position. Also, as others have mentioned, putting weight in the boat might make it more stable (I didn’t find a stability curve for your boat, but I know that my boat for example is generally more stable with 100 pounds of gear in it than with just me.) Then I would say if it’s not fun then don’t keep paddling it. What’s the point if you’re not enjoying yourself.

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Here’s the seat re-installed. You can see a rivet and a bolt. Both the seat and the backband are supported by the bolt. I’m not sure what the rivet is for. I bought the boat used, so I don’t know if this is the original set up or not. As is there is no adjustment.
Mark

Thanks! I’m hoping to do this on the bow of a friend’s boat this weekend (no dock, only large boulders where I launch). I think you’re right and there’s probably another point of stability I haven’t found yet.

Thanks, that’s interesting to see! The mounting point on my boat is different. The bolts enter vertically through the boat and seat on either side of the coaming.

What is the beam on the Bahiya?
If you paddle it 3-5 times and it still feels tender, I would sell it.

Thanks for the input. It’s 20.5"

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My Jara is 20-1/2" wide and my TOC is 21-1/4 wide. Neither seems tippy to me but I get out about 3-4 times a week. A few years back I got my 1st touring kayak, a Necky Chatham17 and it seemed very tippy to me then. It’s 21-1/2" wide. Now the Chatham seems super stable. So I believe it’s no different then riding a bike. You simply ride until you learn how.
I don’t know who said it, but I suspect it’s correct;
There are no tippy kayaks, only tippy paddlers.

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I would just give it more seat time. I volunteer as a safety boater for CLC when they do their demo days. It’s always a challenge to convince people trying kayaking for the first time that the boat that they consider too tippy will feel like a sluggish barge in a few months. First timers often feel that even wide rec boats are tippy at first.

Once you get really used to the Bahiya you’ll appreciate the speed and the ease of doing longer distances.

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Thanks! Yeah, getting back into my Tempest and it feeling barge-like definitely attests to that. I think this has been largely mental and I’m struggling with feeling unconfident for the first time in a while. On the one hand, that’s why I bought the Bahiya (I knew it would be a challenge). On the other hand, I might have underestimated the challenge of dropping from a 22" to 20.5" beam and paddling my first true V-hull at the same time.

It’s getting better though and I’ll be back out there tomorrow!

Another silver lining is that it pushed me to finally create an account and post here. It’s been great to hear from folks and I appreciate all the input.

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Steve, i do agree with you, but I believe it’s rational to ask the question: “How tippy is too tippy.” If I recall correctly, he has a 170 Tempest that seems to better satisfy his choppy water excursion. So the logical question is what advantage does he gain over the Tempest.

My approach to acquiring any tool is what do you expect to gain. So far, I haven’t noticed any reveal that he needs a boat that’s faster, roomier, more agile or responsive, offers improved comfort, lighter in weight, greater load capacity, drier in harsh conditions, tracks better, turns easier, or surf better.

Is it simply a matter of sticking it out to prove a point? Does it have some intrinsic sentimental value? Or is it a need to buck up and take the challenge to prove resiliency? Has anyone asked the question, "Why this boat, when other boats are equally or adequately capable within the intended environment.

I don’t need or want a tippy boat, because my super stable kayak handles the condition I engage. Despite warning that stable boats can be a liability in rough conditions, I haven’t encountered such condition in over 20 years, but then I’m not adventurous. I’ve been challenged about the conditions I’ve encountered, but I’m not intimidated to avoid going out on the Upper Chesapeake Bay when Small Craft Warning are issued. I have no desire to entertain Gale Force conditions. I feel confident in my ability to assess approaching weather and believe I’m able to do so better than most.

So consistent with my timidity on the water, I scoff at any suggestion that I should need a tippier boat and feel perfectly content that I can relax and focus on the experience. I do wish I had originally bought a lighter, faster kayak but how fast is fast enough, how much do I have to sacrifice the indestructibility of plastic for the weight, and how many tenths of a mph will I gain for the added cost. If I were in my forties, it would be worth the investment. I’d be lucky if I’m kayaking or even alive in 10 years. My stable little barge has served me very well. I never regretted not wearing a spray skirt, barely get water in the boat that can’t be removed with a kitchen sponge, and have never felt ill at ease, ever. That’s worth more to me thand faster or tippier. I want to go straight and stay upright, which is why I bought the model kayak I have.

My approach is, if it ain’t broke, no need to fix it. Of course that’s a different matter if you’re seeking adventure or love to explore and experiment. It sounds to me like the OP found one boat that he likes and one he doesn’t like. Normally, I test several options to find the best one. Is the OP being spoofed to pick the least desirable of the two options because someone else likes it? Then again, I wouldn’t know, because I’ve yet to paddle a spirited boat.

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Well john those are all good points. I am unfamiliar with that exact model of P&H kayak but I do see similarities to other kayaks I have owned and a few I still own.
But “mission statement” is also how I guide myself in most things and activities.

  1. “What’s this thing for?”
  2. “What am I trying to do?”
  3. “How is this better?”

If my idea or my acquisition of anything doesn’t pass muster within those 3 questions the last one I have to ask myself is

  1. “Why are I bothering with this?”

So although I believe he can become expert in the use of the Bahiya, if when he is, if he’s not able to do something better then he can do with the Tempest, I’d have to concede the point to my 4th question. And skipping all the first 3 is a valid and possible an intelligent choice, ---- but only Kenpcjr can answer that.

But there is no arguing with the logic you put forward about this particular thread.

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A V bottom is going to feel a bit tippy if it is sitting still. If you let it sit to one side or the other that feeling is reduced. Once moving that feeling goes away in my experience. I suspect there have to be valid reasons for some to post about enjoying this boat. The OP seems to want to master the boat which seems to me a perfectly good reason to keep it for now as he already owns it. I personally like a boat that responds readily to paddler input.

I have paddled a Tempest 17 pro and looked forward to doing so as it has an excellent reputation. I picked it up for my BIL and spent a day in it before getting it to him. It is a sloid sea kayak, but in truth I preferred my v bottom hard chine North Shore which seemed to me more responsive and actually easier to paddle. But then I was used to paddling it and playing in the surf with it.

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You makes good points, as does Steve. I also agree with the points made by others in this thread. In fact, learning to overcome and handle a specific design makes a lot of sense. I’ve never paddled a V hull but apprectioniate your explanation. The Skipjacks of the Chesapeake Bay have shallow V hulls. When heeled, they rest on half the hull which is flat and stable. Once you get accustomed to that feeling of a sudden twitch, it must be as stable as you point put. However, there are many other designs that offer favorable characteristics, such as hard chines, soft chines, flat bottoms and rounded hulls. Each with a specific purpose and characteristic, yet each paddler has a preference based on needs. When I read comments about the Tempest, my wild guess is that the favorability is based on a performance edge over touring style kayaks, while it retains a resaonable level of stability. Then @Craig_S provides some startling observation that he meticulously observed by comparing the Tempest to the Tsunami. Not surprising Craig’s data appears to support the perception that @kenpcjr offered. Since I respect Craig’s analytical process, I can’t help feeling that kenpcjr might be on to something, especially since other kayak owners posted very similar comments about the Bahiya.

The Wilderness Systems multi-chine system is essentially a faceted V. When riding flat, it’s a version of a V. As it goes on edge, it rides a secondary V, but when it heels further, it finds a flat that increases stability to such a degree, it snaps you back to center. Ironically, that self-righting tendency feels awkward if you’re not careful to keep your torso balanced and centered.

That hull design is used in both the Pungo and the Tsunami line. My first 14 ft kayak was a 140 Pungo Duralite model. The forward foam flotation block/hull stiffener blew out on the highway, so I added a forward bulkhead to improve seaworthiness and to stiffen the hull/deck which was a bit flexible when unsupported. It’s one boat I’ll never sell because its so forgiving and a perfect loaner for guest paddlers who are new to kayaking. The 14 ft long by 28 inch wide boat only weighs 39 to 43 lbs, depending on the literature, but it is easy to carry. The low deck reduces wind exposure, but when paired with an open cockpit, it invites water intrusion in waves that I often encountered during open water trips. The standard model makes a heavy boat, but the Duralite version seamed to skim the surface of the water. I sometimes wondered if it would plane if pushed fast enough.

Many novice kayakers express a fear of being enclosed, but the opposite is actually more important. The enclosed deck and longer length adds a safety factor not present in open cockpit boats. The draft of the Pungo was so comparatively shallow compared to the Tsunami, it tracked straight while being easy to turn. I tried many boats during paddle day events with mixed impressions, but the light version of the 140 Pungo was an immediate sell. Anyone looking for a stable platform should jump at the chance if a model is listed. Just install a front bulkhead to improve floatation and provide hull rigidity. The console does helps shed some water washing over the front deck.

The real surprise to me is how the 26 inch 125 Tsunami, the 24.5 inch wide 145, and the 24 inch wide 175 Tsunami are virtually just as stable. I believe WS erred in making the 140 and 145 Tsunami 25.5 inches wide, when narrower would be lighter and faster. I’m skeptical of the printed specs, which don’t show any difference in weight or load capacity over the narrower models.

For what it’s worth. My comments are not intended to sway the OP’s decision as much as it is intended to offer a different perspective on the pressure to buy a twitchy kayak, which certainly would provide valuable handling characteristics under specific conditions. However, learning to handle twitchy isn’t necessary if a paddler has no need or desire to deal with twitchy, because inherent stability also has advantages.

I may not be very adventurous or skilled as a kayaker, but the stable design of the WS kayaks have served me very well in a body of water that can be legendary for harsh conditions. That doesn’t mean I’d endorse the Tsunami for Steve’s Boysen Reservoir, The Great Lakes, the Ocean, or San Francisco Bay. Just attesting to what stable kayaks can offer a novice looking for capable sea kayaks. Tippy is a condition, not a critical trait necessary in every kayak.