When to give up on a "Tippy" Kayak - P&H Bahiya

[castoff]

I do think well of the Pungo, Tempest, Tsunami, and Tarpon in the WS lines of kayaks. They are good boats and I’m not knocking them. I have paddled a few and paddle with folks that paddle them.

My point is that the OP has opted to try something different and seems willing to work on becoming comfortable with the boat he now owns. That there are paddlers that prefer that type of kayak. That there are no right and wrongs here just personal paddling preferences and objectives. I don’t see encouraging kenpcjr as a negative. From my point of view, I think I would find the Bahiya for me the better choice than the Tempest. I tend to like the British style sea kayaks and their handling. I think kenpcjr deserves a chance to find out for himself now that he owns the boat since he also owns a Tempest and can make a personal comparison. Every hull is a compromise and only by paddling them will you find those that suit you.

[Jyak]

I think you misinterpreted my post or skipped major points. I am not suggesting he buy a Pungo, or promoting any WS kayak, even suggesting the 170 Tempest as a better choice. I specifically pointed out that “I” believe the Tempest is popular because it’s user friendly, not because the performance is technically superior. My comments were directed more towards novice paddlers who feel intimidate about sea kayaking because the boats are tippy.

Forgive me for “hijacking the thread.” I’ll take it down since my intentions are not clear.

[castoff]

I didn’t think bad of your post. I feel I understood it. I was just responding to the portions of this tread by those that suggested he get rid of it because it seemed tippy. Not trying to discourage him, at the same time not trying to judge other folk’s choices.

I kind of think the quote “there are no tippy kayaks only tippy paddlers” has a grain of truth to it. I could ride a bike but never quite mastered a unicycle. Maybe if the one I tried to learn on had been better quality where the tire didn’t stay put and would slip and rub against the fork things might have been different. Stilts were easy. Although at my current age and knees I don’t think stilts would be a good idea.

[Jyak]

I agree with you. It’s his choice and I can’t find fault with any of the suggestions, including the advice to give it up. After all, he does like the Tempest.

My perspective is that I don’t get out enough as it is, so it would be hard for me to justify an extended learning curve when I have a kayak that satisfies and serves all my needs, but it’s not up to me to decide. I get the impression that he does want a more responsive boat.

To be clear, I have every one of the dozen boats I bought. So my recommendation would be to keep it, but that depends on his discretion and whether he has the finances, stiorage space, and paddling preference for what that boat offers.

My discussion added kayaks that are less performance oriented to give novice kayakers another angle. The forum occasionally raises concerns about the dwindling sport, lack of participation, and collapsing markets. If I came across a topic like this as a curious novice looking for insight about kayaking, quite frankly, it would end my interest. I can get a dunking at a carnival, sitting on a trap door as the attendant hands out 3 balls for a dollar. If the reader hasn’t figured out my stance by now, I’ll state unequivocally that I bought a boat that would enhance my ability to stay on top of the water, not one to randomly baptize me.

I would never advise a surfer to buy a Pungo, yet there are many respected members paddling Pungos. I started in a rec boat and eventually ended up in a 17’6" rec boat that Craig races again race ready boats, and he occasionally wins. Go figure, and he think the rec boat can occasionally out perform the kayaks designed for rougher conditions.

There are so many brands and designs, so nobody has to shoehorn into a boat if another one is more forgiving and fills the requirement. I paddled Neckys, Perceptions, Current Designs, Old Towns and others. I just didn’t like them, but I never bashed one. I will only recommend based on the parameters that I value. Everybody won’t like the same thing, sometimes for the same reason and sometimes for different reasons. I believe the OP knows what he needs and will make a sound decision. So while the horse gets beat, I decided to add content for the casual kayaker.

I just offered to remove the post if it confused the topic or change the focus. I’ve found myself writing posts and then deleting them because I anticipated that it will generating more conflict than interest. Less contribution to topics gives more time to paddle.

[Jyak]

I read you post again and think your 2nd paragrah hit the nail on the head. No matter how hard I tried, certain things were beyond my grasp. Things like roller skates, ice skates, bunny hopping mountain bikes . . . I could run distances, and go fast on a bicycle, so I did such things that I could master. The other things are there for someone else.

My sisters walked around with ease on stilts that my father made fir them. Such simple things were beyond my capability, and I was glad when the stilts were gone. In the meantime, we pressed them into service as bazookas while enacting war ganes. Unicycles were beyond consideration, so I enjoyed reading about your attempt. I suspect you would have mastered it if not for the defective equipment.

[ppine]

Put some ballast in the boat say 60 pounds or so and see if it settles down. 20.5 inch beam is pretty narrow. I like 24 inches at least for a touring boat or a little more.

I had a rocket fast canoe with a 32 inch beam and it felt tender to me.

[Jyak]

I applaud your perseverance in trying to learn the technique for handling the Bahiya. I’m also curious about the performance factors that draw you to that model. Did you findbit at a good price, or was it recommended for certain features or characteristics?

[kenpcjr]

Thanks, @Jyak! Having spent a few years in the Tempest (and loving it), I found as my comfort and skills with edging progressed, I began to understand how much the Tempest was fighting me when I tried to sustain an edge, often requiring me to lean my head in addition to shifting my weight and lifting my knee. I’d also dropped down from around 180lbs when I got the Tempest two years prior to 165lbs, and I was curious how a lower-volume boat would feel.

I can do everything I need to do with the Tempest and would never had a bad word to say about it, but I was finding that when I wanted to explore and weave my way around interesting coastline features, the Tempest was taking a lot of extra work to explore the nooks and crannies I was interested in. My ideal was to be graceful enough to “explore at pace” if you will. As in, “let me duck into that inlet, paddle around those rocks and that little island and then pop back out and onward, but not slow down to do so.” My take is that a heavier, stronger, (perhaps more skilled) paddler could do that in the Tempest, but that it is probably too big for my current 165lb, 6’4, beanpole-self.

So, I started shopping. And I should say, as it is relevant to some of the recent discussion, I wasn’t shopping to solve a problem (I’m fortunate to be able to own and house a few kayaks, four probably being the max). I was shopping to try something new that I hoped would enable me to refine my skills and aid my “flow-state” exploration. If the Tempest was the only kayak I could ever own, I’d live a very happy life paddling it without complaint.

I had started by looking at shorter boats, but leg room was a concern and I wasn’t sure I wanted to go wider. I already have a Dagger Katana 10.4 for when I’m happy to give up speed for maneuverability. Another element was getting a lighter boat. Getting the Tempest on the car is easy for me. Carrying it to the water is not, and time putting it on and off a cart is time that eats into my paddling. I’d only owned poly boats and appreciate their ruggedness (even though I baby mine and save that ruggedness for the unforeseen), but was curious if a glass boat was for me or actually felt that different.

So what drew me to the Bahiya? It came down to its lower volume (vs the Tempest which I hoped would be a better fit for my weight), reported unique balance of maneuverability and tracking, having a skeg (a backup which I consider table stakes), decent weight, and the chance to try a v-hull. What sealed the deal though, was its forward deck height. I could fit my size 13’s in without issue (even the tempest can feel a little tight depending on foot position). In truth, I imagined myself getting a 21.5 inch boat, but this ticked all the other boxes, so I made the leap and here we are.

I had quite the unexpected adventure in the Bahiya yesterday and will share my experience in a followup post here (I have to take a break from this chair), but I do want to say: I think all this discussion is worthwhile and that all these angles are valid. I put “P&H Bahiya” in the topic title because I figured it would draw people in with specific experience with that boat, but I titled the rest of it as I did hoping that it would spark discussion about people’s relative tolerances, priorities, aspirations, and how they find the balance between those to ensure they are still enjoying themselves (or at least getting what they want out of the experience) regardless of whether they were moving from a 22" to 20.5" beam or a 26" to a 24".

In any case, I’ve gotten a lot out of this thread and appreciate everyone’s thoughtful responses. I’m happy for it to take whatever shape is most relevant to the group from here on out.

[szihn]

Just out of curiosity, if you were going to buy a brand new kayak, what would the top price point be?

[kenpcjr]

I’m not sure I would buy new for a composite (because it’s a lot of money), but if I was going to, I’d still want to spend less than $3k. At that money, I’d still be worried about damaging it all the time. That said, I’m just starting to learn what life with a composite is like, with the Bahiya being my first, so who knows.

[castoff]

They are a lot tougher than you might think and easy to repair.

[kenpcjr]

So, for those who might be interested in how things with the Bahiya are turning out, yesterday was a breakthrough thanks to some unforecasted conditions.

I had had a positive midweek paddle in mild conditions that left me feeling like there was hope in getting comfortable in the boat, and with that optimism in mind, I set off in the Bahiya with a paddling buddy on one of my typical Tempest routes (a 5-mile there and back) up the Hudson River. The tide was coming in and I expected to enjoy pushing against it on my way back. The forecast looked average with estimates of a 5mph wind and gusts up to 10mph. I paddle at the widest point of the Hudson (about 3.5 miles wide), so depending on wind direction and the tide, that can be enough to make things interesting, but fun and manageable. And that’s pretty much what the trip out was: mild and manageable. I was feeling good…feeling like maybe the twitch was waning… more importantly, enjoying myself.

Well, the trip back was another matter entirely. Earlier in the week, I had been out looking for conditions to play in, and yesterday, those conditions found me. As we finished up our snacks at the turnaround point and I used my buddy’s bow to see just how much I could edge the Bahiya, a rolling swell started to push into the cove. Maybe 3 feet, but noticeably larger than anything we’d seen or felt so far. When we poked out of the cove to see what was happening, it was a completely different waterscape than what we left 30-minutes prior. Large whitecaps as far down the river as we could see and strong winds that nearly blew my hat off. I’d later find that the winds ended up being something more like 15mph with gust north of 25mph, and they were blowing across that 3.5 miles of fetch. The bigger issue was that the gusts were very long, so we knew we had our work cut out for us heading back.

I’ll spare you what will surely read as a tall tale about the next hour-plus of paddling and will skip to what I learned about myself and the Bahiya. One last relevant bit I will share to set the context: these were the toughest conditions I’ve ever paddled in any boat, and I’d be taking them predominately across the beam for the duration.

So, how’d it go? All things considered, given the conditions, my skill/experience-level in these conditions (or lack thereof), and my lack of familiarity and confidence with the Bahiya, it went very well. Don’t get me wrong, it was inefficient, slow-going, and terribly tiring, but I don’t think any of that was due to the boat. It did its job and I managed to stay upright. If I didn’t know how to brace properly before, I definitely learned yesterday, and I’d say at least two of those braces were ones I can be proud of as having been required to keep me right side up.

Here’s what I’d say I learned about the Bahiya:

• I didn’t feel at a disadvantage paddling it. Having not had a similar experience in my Tempest, I can’t really compare, but I can say that it never felt like I was in the wrong boat for this situation. Compared to my buddy in his Dagger Cortez (who has a decade of experience on me), I did have trouble tracking straight in the waves and fell behind until I decided to drop the skeg, at which point I could stay straight and keep pace, but not catch up. I’ll chalk this up to paddling ability.

• The twitch does not scale. I just want to take a moment to confirm what @CapeFear had shared about boats like these: the twitch doesn’t increase as the wave size does, and what you feel on gently textured water is likely the most you’re going to feel. I can in fact say that twitchiness was not something I experienced during this paddle. Whether that’s because I’ve started to adjust to the boat, or just that my body had bigger fish to fry in terms of stimuli, I can’t say, but I did not fee twitchy.

• Dropping the skeg in beam seas changed the boat, but not negatively. I’m always reluctant to use my skeg in these scenarios because I feel it adds unpredictability, but while it changed the feel of the Bahiya, it didn’t complicate things.

• Any sort of following sea moves this boat quickly. I had read about this, and though there were only a few moments where I had the opportunity to have the sea following, it starts to surf effortlessly. These were moments of joy amidst chaos.

• It’s a pretty wet ride. The boat likes to slap its bow down after going over a wave. It wasn’t an issue yesterday, but it felt very different from my Tempest that’s more buoyant up front. I also ended up with a few waves in my lap that were unexpected.

Here’s what I learned about myself in the Bahiya:

• I can paddle this boat. I can see how someone more capable than me could do a lot more with the Bahiya. Maybe someday, I’ll be that more capable person. I wouldn’t go seeking a paddle like yesterday’s any time soon (especially solo as I usually paddle), but I feel confident I can handle and enjoy this boat in the conditions I do seek out and know that there’s some margin for error should conditions worsen.

• With some more confidence, and this trip provided a good dose of it, I could have paddled those conditions in that boat better yesterday. This is just to say that, even at my current skill level, I can do more with the Bahiya as I grow more comfortable. Sounds like an obvious point, but it’s one thing to know it and another to believe it, which I think is especially relevant to this topic in general.

• Loosening up my fit and stance helped a lot. The Bahiya is touchy, so disengaging my knees helped me not overcorrect. Instead, I let my hips do the steering and that was all that was needed.

• I don’t feel I’m the “wrong” size for this boat. Or at least, not anymore wrong than I would be in any boat given my height and light weight. This was one of my main concerns when I started this topic, that maybe the physics were just too far against me, but I don’t think I would have stayed upright yesterday if that was the case. I’m just not that skilled of a paddler to have overcome the physics if they were so stacked against me.

• Prior to fatigue setting in, I was enjoying myself. I could have said everything above after 30 minutes of those conditions, but there were no breaks in the hour-plus trip back. But I can say, save for a few key waves and braces that I’ll remember for a long time, I had a really positive mindset throughout the trip back. To think that a week prior, I was bailing on a trip in this boat in conditions that were a fraction of yesterday’s is hard to believe. A little more seat time and a change of mindset goes a long way.

So, there you have it. Some good lessons learned on an unexpectedly eventful day. Thanks again for all the input here.

[Jyak]

I enjoyed the different perspectives. We’re at opposite ends of the stability spectrum. You seek the adventure and I prefer predictability. Around 2010, I looked at the Tempest but didn’t fit at 255 lbs. The Zephyr was available and a bit wider. However, I didn’t like some of the reviews. Initially, I wasn’t sure I understood your preference. Your description of what you’re lookimg for makes sense. The WS design is perfect for my preferences, and I can see where it frustrates you.

My priority is tracking straight. The only time I even think of turn is to go back to the launch sit. Rudders and skegs simply enhance tracking on boats designed to manuever. My 145 Tsunami track great by edging alone, as long as you don’t fidget around in the boat… Rocking, whether intentional or not, actually edges the boat. So inconsistent rocking results in unintentional edging and inconsistent tracking,

Your sensation with the Tempest is on point. It’s hard to keep the WS kayaks on a hard edge, because it wants to return to a centered position. That’s great with the 145 Tsunami, but the 175 Tsunsmi doesn’t share the same tracking characteristic. I’m still trying to figure it out how to make it docile, while you’re looking for more adventure. I hope you conquor it, and look forward to your exploration.

For paddlers interested in a better understading of the Tempest and Tsunami characteristics, @Shadepine and @Craig_S offer valuable insight. @E.T also provide valuable fitment and performance comparison between the140 Tsunami, 170 and 165 Tempest, and the P&H Virgo. All are worth following if anyone is interested in a less spirited ride.

Good luck on your quest. I’m interested in your perspective on the Impex Assateague, if you ever test paddle one. I tracked along with another paddler in one and it caught my attention due to the apparent speed and tracking ability in the hands of an self-described novice paddler.

[Jyak]

That was an interesting read. Kayaking is unique in how it can manage seemingly unmanageable conditions. Its odd to hear you mention the challenge. of unloading and reloading the boat. Frankly, it has become and remains the least favorite aspect of kayaking.

I didn’t realize how similar the Hudson could be to the Upper Chesapeake Bay, where I’ve faced similar conditions in the 175 Tsunami, with gust up to 30 mph. The main difference is that although the boat was able to hangle the conditions, I considered that to be my cutoff, while ot dound like you were just starting to take it in Stride. You growth from the sound advice and encouragement is apparent. With further growth, that will be an easy day.

The sharp turn in conditions, can happen quickly, and it should always be anticipated. Conditions typically recur more often than not, so compared the performance of the Tempest to the same challenge, and see how you face that challenge. That’s how you decide the merits of a boat based on your skill.

[paddler1826785]

Sometimes dropping the skeg just half way (or maybe a little less or a little more) will do the trick depending on a number of factors. At least that’s my experience. Maybe your boat is different, but I think it’s worth trying. I use mine about half way down whe I’m paddling with the wind at my side. Im still trying different settings in different conditions. I put it all the way down when I’m able to surf (not that I surf big waves, just that sometimes if everything works out it makes the paddle fun and faster) which seems to help keep the boat pointing where I want it.

[szihn]

This is also what I learned when I 1st started using a sea kayak, and found it could handle wind and waves very well if I simply learned how to use the tools. In big waves, chop and wind the weak link in a kayak is nearly always the kayaker.
A well designed kayak is capable of incredible uses in waves that most folks would say are not possible to get through in a man powered craft. The use of a skeg is a big advantage, but as you learn, use it as little as you can get away with. In my Chatham17 as well as both my Rebel kayaks in winds that tend to blow my hat off, I find I can use about 1/2- 2/3 the available blade most times, and the kayak settles down and does as I ask it.

To Relax in the cockpit is the key. The catch 22 is trying to relax in a situation that makes you think it’s dangerous. The more you tense up the more the kayak fails to respond to you needs and the more that happens the more dangerous it gets or feels
But if you do relax and up-grade your skills, waves and wind that would scare you to your bones when you started are simply a fun time when you learn how to use a kayak in the correct way.

So… How do you learn to relax?
You spend a lot of time in the kayak and when the waves are up and the wind is blowing, get to a place that it blows you into land not away from it and get out about 20 yards from shore and spend time in the kayak working on those waves in wide circles clockwise and counterclockwise. Go out in conditions you don’t think you can handle, but do it in places that push you and your kayak inland when you fail. Only seat time can cure the problem.
Watching videos and reading books help you to remember what the experts tell us, but to become more expert yourself you must do it. So go do it in a safe place and do not be afraid to fail. Pushing yourself to the point of failure is the fastest way to learn a physical skill, and going inside your comfort zone may take you 5-7 years to learn what you can learn in 3 months is you push to the failure point. Failure is only failure it it’s where you stop.

Failure is the best friend you can have if you really want to learn skills fast. Most folks become afraid in places where the danger is real. In water with wind and waves pushing you towards land and only 20 yards out, the emotions are there, but the danger is mostly just in your mind.
Once you go over a few dozen times and just get to shore, turn the kayak over to empty it, re-launch and trey again, ----- inside about 1 week you’ll be amazed that those size waves and that degree of wind ever scared you at all. In a week or so they are easy to manage.

Have faith in yourself! If you don’t take stupid chances as you learn there really is not great danger so push your skills until you learn how to do them, and every time you go upside down, just laugh it off and think about the point you capsized and how your body was at that moment.

The books and videos are THEN worth the time you spent listening and reading because that how you’ll see what you did wrong and as you push yourself to your personal edge, you find you push the edge back and back and back ----- and a lot faster then you ever thought possible.

Lastly, if you have any friends who are skilled paddlers, go with them and let them coach you and talk about the skills and you can help each other. A skilled instructor would be worth a lot I am sure. Where I live I had no such opportunities, so I had to learn on my own, using only videos and books. But because I know what I had to do to learn the skills, I now can teach them probably 20 times faster then I was able to self-teach.
So good company is well worth having in the learning stage. (well at any stage for that matter) If instruction is available by all means get it. But don’t let your self doubts rule you and never be afraid to try to a point of capsize when you are set up just for such an eventuality.

I am a pretty old man, and I didn’t start kayaking until I was well past my prime, but I take courage in that the few face to face times I did have time with masterful kayakers (so far) were with men who did amazing things in kayaks and they were both 15+ years older then I am. When I was 65 and they were 81 and 79, and could do things so effortlessly they seems like magicians, I realized I am NOT too old, too crippled, or too anything but maybe too afraid of swimming. Once I was comfortable capsizing and reentering and once I learned a few basic rolls I was not afraid of waves anymore.
At one time waves that came over my deck got me all tense and nervous. Now I go out in waves I can’t see over, and it’s fun. I envy coastal kayakers because they get to play in waves made by winds a long way away. In the mountains wind and wave size are locked together. We have no tides and so waves must be actively pushed by winds. My limit is around 35 MPH because over that I can’t stay with it very long, and trying to go against winds of 35 MPH or more is really not possible for me for very long. I can cut at 45 degrees to them and ferry back and forth and cover some distance, but after maybe 8 miles of that I am all worn out and the fun is gone.
But the point is that even in 35 MPH wind driven waves with a 8-10 mile fetch I now like playing in the waves. A few years back a wave of 20 inches seemed terrifying. As I lost the fear I came to relax, and as I relaxed I got better and better at paddle strokes and braces, which made me relax more, which reduced fear of even higher waves --------------- and so on and so on.

Failure can be your best friend or your worst foe.
Which one it becomes is up to you.