Instruction not available locally, costs
Not much available around here.
Sometimes traveling for instruction costs as much or more than the boat and gear.
have you visited the ACA website
– Last Updated: Jul-03-12 12:29 AM EST –
I know of at least one canoe instructor in your area. Canoeist 11 here is but one of them
http://www.americancanoe.org/resource/resmgr/sei-documents/instructor_list_2012-canoe.pdf
http://freestylecanoeing.com/FreeStyleInstructors/FreeStyleInstructors.html
And an entire cadre at Wisconsin FreeStyle Symposium.
Yes it involves more travel than to your local supermarket but still not unreasonable.
It’s till time and money.
A minimum of 6 hour round trip for 1 on 1 lessons with canoeist11 or 12 hour round trip to the Wisconsin Freestyle symposium.
To the point of the O.P., particular symposiums only happen once a year and many areas don’t have local instruction for canoes or kayaks.
If there is relatively local instruction available, it often only happens once a year with a particular club or dealer/outfitter.
Most beginner paddlers aren’t going to spend more money on instruction than they spend on boat and gear and aren’t going spend more time traveling to get instruction than they expect to spend on the water during the entire season.
In many areas, instruction isn’t as accessible as it is in other areas, whether instruction is defined in terms of money or in terms of distance to travel for the instruction.
I paddled the first few years entirely without any instruction and my fatigue at the end of the group river trips was evidence of the poor technique, as well as my poor excuses for boat and paddles.
I eventually hooked up with a somewhat local club which used to offer free introductory lessons once a year and I only had to travel 50 to 90 miles to get to it. I’m not sure they still offer those lessons every year.
Not worried
My concerns are purely selfish. I’m concerned that, eventually, the uninformed public will look on the drowned rec boater and equate them with skilled (that pesky word again!)kayakers and begin to close even more access. That’s how it happens. Private property owners concerned about liability, sloppy and rude kayakers leaving trash at the put-in or takeout or other rude behavior along the road. Perceived unsafe kayaking is also a threat to my access, though indirectly. Unfortunately, how paddlers - all paddlers - are perceived matters.
Of course it is
Whether you decide it’s “worth it” to spend the time, money, and time practicing is your choice.
That said, I also live in an area that lacks in-depth sea kayak instruction. I had to travel over the years to get it. It was worth it to me because I had gotten a taste of the sea early on and knew I wanted to paddle more than lakes or calm water.
For most local paddlers who only go out a few times a year between late spring and early fall, close to shore in the smaller lakes and ponds, avoiding windy days, etc etc, the lack of instruction isn’t a big deal. I bet most of them DON’T want to pursue it at a higher level than that. That’s their choice. In this location, it only gets them when they go out in cold water inadequately dressed, OR when they get caught by high wind.
The trouble arises when they think they’re fine for more testing situations, based on solely paddling the easiest stuff and easiest days. The margin of safety from better knowledge and physical skills isn’t there.
good post sitka - and a response
Speaking only for myself, I don’t have any animosity toward instructors. Instructors deserve much of the credit for where I am now, my ability to go places I couldn’t go before, and my ability to judge where I can’t yet go. Of course, whitewater is a different bag than pond paddling.
I don’t think too many here are saying that “formal instruction is never necessary”. Again speaking only for myself, I am saying that there is a certain segment of the population that will likely never need it. Do those people deserve to be browbeat and treated poorly as willi seems to enjoy? Of course not. Does treating them thusly attract them or any others to the sport or to seek out instruction in the sport? I doubt it. Seeding doubt usually doesn’t accomplish much of anything except resentment.
Since you’re an instructor I’d like to see you comment on the “expert syndrome” and what happens to some newly indoctrinated or educated people: they become experts on the topic. IMO this is what Willi is exhibiting in this thread. Is that not equally dangerous as the newbie he keeps castigating?
I think instruction is important but you cannot ignore human nature and the way we best interact. Simple fact is that:
- some people will never need instruction
- some people will never admit they need instruction
- some people think that instruction has made them the arbiters of judgement on every perceived peer they can imagine.
anyone here take defensive driving class
How about you, willi?
Anyone take defensive driving as a supplement to driver’s education? anyone here have track time? How about in wet or snowy weather?
Now: how many of you are driving “newbies”?
But wait: how much time do you spend in your car vs. your kayak? And yet you haven’t admitted to yourselves that your driving skills put you and others in danger on a regular basis?
What do you imagine the healthcare cost impacts are for accident injury treatment due to this oversight on your part? And how about the costs piled on suffering municipalities after you and your victims are pulled from the ditch?
Finally: does any of the above rant make you feel like you want to take a defensive driving class? No? Yet you put more people at risk and drive unnecessary costs much more than any newbie kayaker shunning instruction at the point of ridicule.
I didn’t ask for your resume
I asked you why such an ignorant novice such as myself would have known not to take my rec boat to the aleutian islands. Do you think I have an unusual gift?
willi, you can’t teach anyone anything
– Last Updated: Jul-03-12 10:54 AM EST –
...when your mouth is always running and your ears are always closed.
Personally I think you're a guy who learned some new tricks and is using that to be a judgemental snob to others. Tell you what: since you can spot a newbie, try and stay the hell away from them.
Yes
I have often thought of taking such a course. I think it would be a good idea if people did so. And your “rant” did not put me off from the idea. And I wish the gentleman who ran a red light in front of me this morning had taken such a course. Luckily I always look before entering an intersection on a green light.
so what’s stopping you?
…and you’re an instructor, right? You should know even better!
(just picking on you, no offense meant)
Response
Over the course of this thread I’ve seen many folks say that instruction isn’t necessary (admittedly, I don’t track who so it’s possible that it’s the some ones over and over again) I’ve also read some terrible analogies and metaphors comparing paddling to cycling, golf and walking and, my own, mathematics.
I don’t approve of browbeating newbies into instruction. I certainly don’t walk up to obvious new paddlers and call them morons and insist that they’re going to die out there. If they’re doing something obvious - such as holding the paddle improperly, I may say something and only once. If they’re taking off down a river and there’s nothing downstream except, perhaps a WW style beatdown but no real life and death risks I may tail them down to both chuckle and to render assistance if they require it and advice if they ask. Finally, on this point, knowing some top instructors, I’ve watched them walk by newbies feeling their way along, just like we all do at some point and not say a word, unless asked. I choose to model that behavior rather than being a PITA and turning them off to instruction, either formal or informal. If they feel that they need it, they’ll get it, if they feel otherwise nothing I have to say will convince them.
Speaking to your request regarding “expert Syndrome”: The people most likely to give unsolicited advice is usually not certificated instructors (my opinion only)but the self appointed experts who’ve taken a few classes or the “helpful” types who, in trying to help out, cause nothing but headaches and aggravation. Quite honestly, even if they’re receptive to the idea of instruction, I’m not inclined to interrupt what I’m doing to coach all the time. Quite frankly, the worst advice I generally hear is when I’m in the paddling section of REI. I’ve been the recipient of unsolicited advice quite often. In fact, I was on my way to the put in on the SF of the Snoqualmie a few weeks ago and a guy who knew nothing about paddling informed me that there wasn’t enough water to run the stretch I was planning to do. Clearly, my group disagreed and had a great run. I guess my feeling is to keep you opinions to yourself, unless asked or something hazardous is in the offing.
I think we mostly agree
I understand there will always be those who shun any instruction. Who knows why. Pride?
I live in Michigan
and you can only take such a course if you are “eligible”, which means you already have points on your driving record but aren’t being prosecuted. I have never had any points on my driving record. The only option is a course designed for high speed driving on a closed course. I am not interested in that.
the State of MI shuns technique?
– Last Updated: Jul-03-12 12:56 PM EST –
You're speaking of a course intended specifically for drivers with infractions and certified by the State as such. I am not limiting my definition of "defensive driving" to those courses.
Driving on a closed course near your car's limits is sort of like teaching the roll in a pool. Controlled conditions and managed risk enable a driver to find the limits of their vehicle without consequence, so that when they encounter it in real-life situations, they have the experience and training to do so. These courses may be advertised as racing training but also offer experience controlling a car at the limits.
Here's one option if you're genuinely interested:
http://www.drivefullthrottle.com/
You're dancing around the question and the point. There are plenty of options. Yet few people seek out these courses, and no one mandates these courses except as a "too little too late" requirement. Why is that? Are they really a reasonable investment for every driver?
What seems to be important in the OP is how the OP defines others, not whether the others have or need to be sufficiently experienced and knowledgeable for their chosen activity. This is exhibited through the OP's condescension and denigration. So - have I accurately defined drivers who don't seek out defensive driving or other supplemental instruction as careless and selfish?
“I’m not interested in that”
“The only option is a course designed for high speed driving on a closed course. I am not interested in that.”
Mmmm… let’s see, I’m a pond paddler. The only skill clinic I can see teaches technique to handling rough water situation such as rolling and getting back into the boat after I got tipped over…
“I’m not interested in that”
It’ simple
My original post is a simple question that pops up
among paddling aficionados over shared meals,
around campfires and local marinas every season.
I merely typed it on the internet to promote
discussion, awareness, and perhaps learn a bit
more about society in general.
Some like learning, some don’t and that’s okay;
- until the consequences affect the general population.
Pond over your head ?
Most people paddle in water over their head
- hope you stay in the boat
Solid question willi_h2o
You asked a very good question and it comes down to level of interest/personality. I wish I’d had instruction years before I did. Paddled 10 years class I II and never knew what an eddy was, or saw anyone surf, ferry, etc. Would love to have those 10 years back. INSTRUCTION MADE PADDLING SO MUCH MORE FUN AND ENJOYABLE AND OPENED COUNTLESS NEW HORIZONS. I wasn’t aware of instruction until a local instruction event was published in our newspaper. IT MADE ME FALL IN LOVE WITH PADDLING SO MUCH MORE I TOOK A 5 DAY COURSE AT NOC. WOW DID MY ENJOYMENT SOAR!! And I already loved the environment, scenery, peace of rivers. BEST LEISURE $$ I EVER SPENT IN MY LIFE!!!
There’s just something awesome about elegant, precise, powerful, graceful strokes. To me it’s SUPER to paddle that way in anything from small ponds to class III rapids. It does take a lot of time and work focus and discipline and “want to” but it is so worth it. The 90% (99%?) who go out just to experience rivers, lakes, and boats get a lot of enjoyment and they’re good for out sport. Numbers count. BUT THE ENHANCED EXPERIENCES THAT INSTRUCTION PROVIDE ARE JUST AWESOME, AWESOME, AWESOME. I’m blessed in this one life I have to love something this much.
An example of the advantages of training
Read the trip report that I posted here.
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThread.html?fid=advice&tid=1532429
This whirlpool happened about 200’ from Deadman Island and a few hundred yards from Lopez Island.
As a local instructor, I ask people what there paddling dreams are and, for many, it’s paddling in the San Juan Islands and he other island groups. Many have paddled through these islands in rentals unaware of what the water is doing. When people express this desire I tend to emphasize rescue techniques a bit more strenuously as well as recommend that they practice navigation and trip planning around tides and currents.
This is not to say that I’ve ever found newbies in this place, more to emphasize what can happen and the positive benefits of practicing for the worst. You won’t find this in your pond, though.