Excellent video MP. I watch a lot of those but havent stumbled across that one. Very useful.
I’ve read a comparison where the wing was adding 3% speed vs Euro. Pretty much negligible unless you are racing. Nevertheless I’m using a small-mid all the time (flat water, not white) as it’s forcing me to use torso and leg drive. It’s also lighter and more “cool” than my Euro’s. 
How’s bracing with a wing?
@PaddleDog52 said:
How’s bracing with a wing?
Hey Paddle Dog, I’ve never really had a problem with low braces, but I think a high brace might be a bit of an issue.
Thanks MP
To me bracing is a little less easy with a wing than Euro. Need a bit more practice.
I’d say if you are in a condition where there is a real risk of capsizing and need to roll, have to brace a lot - use an Euro paddle that day.
One should also distinguish between a low angle Euro and a high angle Euro. The high angle Euro stroke is similar (not identical) to a wing stroke, while the low angle Euro is similar to the GP stroke. While the GP or low angle Euro can be used in a high stroke, this is not ideal either. Similarly, a wing or high angle Euro can be used low, but again not ideal.
@gjf12 said:
One should also distinguish between a low angle Euro and a high angle Euro. The high angle Euro stroke is similar (not identical) to a wing stroke, while the low angle Euro is similar to the GP stroke. While the GP or low angle Euro can be used in a high stroke, this is not ideal either. Similarly, a wing or high angle Euro can be used low, but again not ideal.
Sorry…I disagree with most of this. The only similarity between a High angle Euro stroke and a High wing stroke is the approximate entry point. Every other aspect is different. {and the forces in play and the path the paddle takes, are also different} Also the low angle Euro stroke has very little similarities to a canted Greenland stroke. {with a lenticular faced GP} The Greenland paddle has more in common with the wing , than with any Euro unless you are talking exclusively about a Betsy Bay style Paddle…{flat faced paddle} The GP works very well in a High angle stroke also. A low angle wing stroke has more in common with a low angle Greenland stroke {canted, lenticular faced GP} and has similar forces at play.
Different strokes for different folks. Literally.
I reviewed the full video several times and the ‘lock’ being referred to seems to be a biomechanic sensation, rather than actual fact. The video looks like a valuable training tool for wing paddle technique, but that doesn’t necessarily make it a valid explanation of the flow physics.
So with this in mind, have a look at the attached video. If you don’t want to watch the whole thing, watch from 38 seconds through 1:00.
During the two sequences from 0:52 to 1:04, the paddle enters vertically at the arrow. The root of the blade is withdrawn at the arrow, but the center of the blade, which is where the center of effort would be located, comes out well behind the arrow. The mean location of the blade in these examples appears to moves backward.
This is coming from a Ph.D and one of the most renowned Olympic coaches in the game today. He is the architect of several gold medals and has spent a lifetime involved in the sport.
Dr. Issurin has published a great deal, sports science research, training texts (through a publisher called ‘Ultimate Athlete Concepts’), and has served as a scientific consultant in sports for years. His focus is biomechanics and sports science, not engineering or flow physics. The diagrams of force vectors on the paddle without labels are hard to interpret - they don’t look complete. The explanation of the generation of lift is pretty skimpy, but there is a bit of a language barrier.
Also, if you don’t want to watch the video–here is the reference to a study regarding locking the blade/trajectory.
(It’s at 3:00)
The ellipse diagram is interesting - it seems correct as a 2D representation. The diagram shows that the blade can enter and exit the water at nearly the same place. However, during the stroke it is moving fore-aft relative to that location, so the blade must slip in the water while executing the shape shown. In any case, the diagram is 2D and is missing aspects of the 3D stroke.
The evidence that wing paddles slip while generating lift is shown clearly in the sequence from 5:57 to 6:05. In this head-on view, the wing slides laterally through the water. The lateral trajectory generates differential flow over the top and bottom of the wing paddle blade, generating lift. The paddle can indeed enter and exit the water at the same fore-aft location relative to the hull while generating lift like this, since the flow over the paddle is inducing significant flow aft (as GBG mentioned previously). But to consider that this paddle is ‘locked’ while undergoing the sliding motion shown doesn’t make any sense to me, unless the statement represents the feel of the paddle, rather than the actual behavior of the paddle.
I’m sure I come off as pedantic about these issues, but I feel I have to do it, and certainly wouldn’t blame anyone for skipping these posts or thinking they’re over the top…
@gjf12 said:
While the GP or low angle Euro can be used in a high stroke, this is not ideal either.
That reminds me of a funny experience. During a GP class with an ACA L2 instructor who had a GP endorsement, I was told I was “doing it all wrong” because I use a high angle stroke. I knew that was incorrect but said nothing. Later that day I attended a class with a five star BCU coach who has numerous circumnavigations under his belt. While talking about the effectiveness of the Greenland paddle, he remarked that both low and high angle strokes were appropriate and to ditch the dogmatic thinking that the GP is only for low angle paddling. My ACA GP instructor was standing next to him.
@Rookie
You are better behaved than me. I tended to talk back. Though I was prepared to stop arguing and let them learn a lesson when a highly rated BCU instructor misread the markers and was preparing to take a class of paddlers right into the middle of a channel to practice capsizes. After she blew me off twice I assessed the situation and decided that traffic was light enough the most likely outcome was their getting cursed out by a lobsterman. I missed the entertainment though (I was decidedly not going to follow them). A boat came thru just as she had the class lined up to head out from the nearby island.
@Celia
That was my first year with my Lumpy and I had gotten a lot of advice via emails and phone conversations with Bill Bremer. He mentioned I’d probably come across questionable comments about technique and that it was best to just go along with what the instructor wanted during the class. I certainly didn’t have the experience or confidence to challenge her. Poetic justice was served that afternoon and I went back to “doing it all wrong” as soon as the class was over.
Safety, like your situation, is something else and kudos to you for sticking to your good judgment.
Back in 2014 I asked the community for advice on how to choose a good kayak instructor. Someone mentioned that it’s like going on blind dates; some are great, some are okay, and others are duds. So true.
@roym said:
The only similarity between a High angle Euro stroke and a High wing stroke is the approximate entry point. Every other aspect is different. {and the forces in play and the path the paddle takes, are also different}
Also the low angle Euro stroke has very little similarities to a canted Greenland stroke. {with a lenticular faced GP} The Greenland paddle has more in common with the wing , than with any Euro unless you are talking exclusively about a Betsy Bay style Paddle…{flat faced paddle} The GP works very well in a High angle stroke also. A low angle wing stroke has more in common with a low angle Greenland stroke {canted, lenticular faced GP} and has similar forces at play.
All four of my GP’s are about 220 cm. My Werner Kalliste and AT Xception Tour (both low angle Euro) are also 220 cm. On the other hand my Onno wing is generally set at 208.
It is much easier for me to hold a good high stroke with the wing set at 208 than at its max of 218. I do not at all like using the wing at 218. It is very difficult for me to get into high (non wing) stroke with any paddle, GP or Euro or wing, set at 220. At 220 my low stroke with either GP or Euro is pretty similar. (I always cant the GP, never the low angle Euro, but this has no effect on my stroke.)
High and low with the GP… absolutely true. I am primarily a bicycle person. (getting caffeinated for this morning’s ride as I type). On the bike, I, and many others, switch it up and move it around. If your legs get tired you spin faster. Heart and lungs pooping out? Mash a bigger gear. Quads burning? Stand up for awhile. Move forward and back in the saddle. It is totally natural for me to switch things around in the kayak for the same reasons as while biking.
High angle for awhile then low angle. Rotate the torso then do crunches. Larger paddle (slower cadence) then switch to the smaller paddle for a faster cadence.
The best definition of the difference between a wing and euro paddle is that the wing pulls the boat through the water. The euro an GP push water past the hull.
The biggest problem for most kayaks using a wing is their width. The twist in wing paddles is meant to pull the paddle away from the hull as it passes through the water. That is fine on narrow boats but get unwieldy when your entry point is anywhere near shoulder width. The final (withdrawal) position takes a lot of the control out of the use.
The problem in rolling with a euro paddle is just technique. The blade area creates too much resistance if turned wrong. It is like righting a sailboat without releasing the sail first. It just takes practice.
The biggest problem with practice is that it usually happens in a pool. Getting knocked out of a boat usually happens in much rougher waters. Pool practice will not help you there.
@CraigF said:
The best definition of the difference between a wing and euro paddle is that the wing pulls the boat through the water. The euro an GP push water past the hull.
I would argue that a GP generates lift when used canted and in a wing stroke, so would not agree that it behaves same as a Euro paddle when used in standard drag mode.
Also, I have a nice low-area crank-shaft Euro paddle that can be used in a wing stroke pretty successfully. Overall, I think the behavior depends more on the style of stroke than the shape of the paddle.
In support of carldelo’s post just above:
There is a video which has been posted several times where Ivan Lawler (a former 5x world champion) teaches paddling technique. The video is really worth seeing.
It is of course implicitly assumed that the teaching is about wing paddles, but at some time in the video, someone in the audience ask what they should do if they use a euro paddle. Ivan’s answer is that they should basically do exactly the same stroke.