@Rookie said:
@roym said:
As a side note 22 oz for a paddle the size Superior is making with a Lendal Padlok system is an amazing feat. To shave off those few oz is a very expensive endeavor. I am simply amazed that Mark has done this.And, at $575, a very expensive paddle. I wonder if shipping is extra.
YES I paid 600 total I got mine about 4 years ago.
@Mountainpaddler said:
@carldelo said:
Euro paddles are drag-based, so less slip is desirable, but will always be there.
Wing paddles work by slipping - the relative flow over the blade face is what creates the large lifting force on the foil. The component of lifting force in the direction of boat motion is what adds that extra something to the existing drag force.
So you’re saying that a wing paddle works by slipping? The “catch” is the term used to describe the initial entry of the blade into the water. Followed by “locking the blade” and then pulling the boat forward beyond the point of the entry of the blade. I understand that fluid as a medium is not a solid but isn’t it intended at the catch and lock to function temporarily as a solid?
After the catch, the wing moves through the water, changes position and slides out at the exit; is this what you’re talking about?
So are you saying that the blade at the catch “slips” through the water or grabs the water and pulls the paddler forward?
And as far as fluid as a medium; isn’t that relative to velocity and force applied? If someone jumps from a rock 6 feet above the water wouldn’t the impact be markedly more “solid” if the same person belly flopped off a bride at 100 feet?
I’ve been swamped and unable to reply. Now I find that I’m unable to answer in a concise manner. Basically, a fluid cannot behave as a solid, except perhaps in high-speed impacts. The example you give of a high-dive is correct, but is not relevant to paddling. Slip happens — in a wing stroke the slip is enhanced and exploited to generate an additional forward force, adding to the normal drag-based propulsion of the paddle.
If one likes to visualize the paddle stroke as a catch followed by locking-in the blade and pulling the boat past it like a pole-vaulter, that’s fine with me. Just be aware that it’s a misstatement of what is actually happening, and so conclusions based on that mental model (like which paddle shape is best or how to modify your stroke) may not be valid, or may be only partially correct.
Here’s my 2 bobs worth (Aussie expression: 2 bob in the old money, is now 20 cents). Wing v Euro v GP. Wing is best for long distances but you need leg drive and rotation of the torso to get the best out of it (most people don’t have enough torso rotation so the small advantage is lost). Disadvantages are when rolling and in rough water, but they can be overcome with practice. Euro is good all round and is my preference. You still need good torso rotation and leg drive but they are more forgiving. When rolling use the C2C, with a practiced hip-flick/knee drive you will come up every time. GP is for a lazy paddle in the sunshine. Gives enormous lift in a roll, but you only need this if your hip-flick/knee drive is not well developed or your support strokes have not succeeded in keeping you upright. The hand position with a GP does not encourage torso rotation and therefore not as great a need for leg drive. So it depends on what you are on the water for. If it is to go from A to B in the shortest time - use a wing. If you want to practice all your skills, use either a Euro or a GP. Have all 3 on hand and choose a paddle according to the mood of the water and your mood. Whatever you do, remember to have a smile from ear to ear.
Heardi, the GP requires just as much torso work, if not more.
But this torso work is less in the form of pure rotation, and more in the form of crunching forward / leaning backward to drive the stroke, combined with some rotation.
There are probably historical reasons for this - the original greenland kayaks do not have enough space for doing the leg work needed for full torso rotation - but there is also a physical reason: You need some counterweight on the opposite side of the kayak to cancel out the negative lift if you cant your GP in the original way.
@Mountainpaddler said:
So you’re saying that a wing paddle works by slipping? The “catch” is the term used to describe the initial entry of the blade into the water. Followed by “locking the blade” and then pulling the boat forward beyond the point of the entry of the blade.
Your description of the stroke is not how a wing is supposed to be used.
You are supposed to move the paddle away from the kayak during the stroke. Some race paddlers say “always keep your paddle in clean water”, meaning that you should try to let the paddle follow a line on the outside of your bow wake - which is usually not that easy in a sea kayak.
During this motion away from the kayak, if you have the blade canted correctly (which the wing does more or less on itself) you will generate a lift which pulls you forward.
@Mountainpaddler said:
@carldelo said:
Euro paddles are drag-based, so less slip is desirable, but will always be there.
Wing paddles work by slipping - the relative flow over the blade face is what creates the large lifting force on the foil. The component of lifting force in the direction of boat motion is what adds that extra something to the existing drag force.
So you’re saying that a wing paddle works by slipping? The “catch” is the term used to describe the initial entry of the blade into the water. Followed by “locking the blade” and then pulling the boat forward beyond the point of the entry of the blade. I understand that fluid as a medium is not a solid but isn’t it intended at the catch and lock to function temporarily as a solid?
After the catch, the wing moves through the water, changes position and slides out at the exit; is this what you’re talking about?
So are you saying that the blade at the catch “slips” through the water or grabs the water and pulls the paddler forward?
And as far as fluid as a medium; isn’t that relative to velocity and force applied? If someone jumps from a rock 6 feet above the water wouldn’t the impact be markedly more “solid” if the same person belly flopped off a bride at 100 feet?
The “catch” and “lock” of the blade in both the Wing and Euro is the bottom 2/3 of the blade into still deep water with the water of the top 1/3 of the blade holding that deeper piece of water locked in place. Water at depth behaves differently to water on the surface. Its critical to have a good angle on the shaft (somewhere around 60 to 70 degrees) so your recovery hand needs to be at shoulder/chin level and maintain that through the power phase of the stroke. Most paddlers using a wing or euro paddle don’t rotate sufficiently and many don’t use a proper leg drive so they might as well be using a GP and forget about leg drive and rotation and just enjoy the moment on the water.
(A bit of physics here) The lift from a Wing paddle is in the direction of travel of the craft, so to produce that lift the paddle blade needs to move perpendicular to that direction (in the water) ie: from the point of entry the paddle blade moves out from the craft (perpendicular to the direction of motion of the craft) to the point of exit (in line or just behind the hips). This action is done with the rotation of the torso of the paddler, so the paddle needs to do that at speed to gain the desired lift from the aerofoil shape of the blade. If you are just going for a lazy paddle leave your wing at home as its not doing the job its designed for, use a Euro or a GP and enjoy your time on the water.
One more comment…for me, bracing with the Euro is a push-the-blade-down thing. Very simple. In order to get the purchase or ‘bite’ with the GP you push down and forward at the same time. You can get the same effect by pushing down and pulling backward but this human’s body does better pushing forward. If you use a GP and don’t learn to scull with it you aren’t getting one of it’s great benefits / advantages.
Yeah, the idea that GP does not take advantage of torso rotation is coming from someone who has gotten poor instruction in using it. But as I said above, there are some details that are different for the truly detailed approach to correct paddling.
*
@Allan Olesen said:
@Mountainpaddler said:
So you’re saying that a wing paddle works by slipping? The “catch” is the term used to describe the initial entry of the blade into the water. Followed by “locking the blade” and then pulling the boat forward beyond the point of the entry of the blade.
Your description of the stroke is not how a wing is supposed to be used.
You are supposed to move the paddle away from the kayak during the stroke. Some race paddlers say “always keep your paddle in clean water”, meaning that you should try to let the paddle follow a line on the outside of your bow wake - which is usually not that easy in a sea kayak.
During this motion away from the kayak, if you have the blade canted correctly (which the wing does more or less on itself) you will generate a lift which pulls you forward.
This is true. In fact, all of this is true. I think the context is important. So yes, lift is required, a certain degree of sideways motion is required and also, there is a relative truth the function of water as a fluid.
So, I think we agree–unless I’m mistaken.
@gstamer said:
I have a older blog post where I shared my thoughts on GPs and wings at http://www.gregstamer.com/2012/02/12/greenland-paddle-wing-paddle .Greg
Greg, I have seen your posts several times, and without fail, they are always comprehensive, informative and well thought out. I read your blog, and one aspect I think would be important to point out is in regards to your assessment of the wing paddle as being inherently harder on shoulders, I don’t think this is necessarily true if the stroke is done properly.
The picture you included on your blog immediately stood out to me as having your shoulder too high for the stroke.
Have a look at the pic of Max Hoff. He is the current world record holder in the 1000 meter. His shoulders are noticeably lower and more relaxed. If you’ll notice, he is bending at the elbow and raising his hand higher–using a 90 degree (ish) bend to achieve the higher height in order to get the vertical entry. Elbows should always remain lower than the shoulder–I found out the hard way.
I’ve had a problem with this myself and have had to spend a good bit of attention to rectify.
Good technique on the wing need not be hard on shoulders and it will simultaneously make for faster and more efficient overall paddling.
Water at depth behaves differently to water on the surface.
—Not exactly sure how this would be so, unless you’re talking about wave-making.
(A bit of physics here) The lift from a Wing paddle is in the direction of travel of the craft…
—The net force on a wing paddle blade that is working well has a sizeable component in the direction of travel (called lift by you, me and others, but it should probably be called thrust), but there is also a significant downward component that makes the blade want to dive (and capsize the boat) and a somewhat less-noticeable lateral component that induces yaw. The nature of the stroke is such that the net force vector is fully 3D and varies in magnitude and direction during the stroke.
I’ll echo others who disagree with the characterization of the GP as a lily-dipping paddle. Using a GP without canting and torso rotation is missing the point of the paddle.
- On the function of a wing–Yes, it generates lift. In order to generate the lift, you have to first “catch” the water, “lock” the blade (because if it “slips”–you cannot generate lift) and then power the boat through the fixed spot on the water via the pivot point–which will move away from hull as the blade turns over and spills the locked water.
— unfortunately, I’m afraid none of this is accurate. This is just not how paddles work, wing or otherwise.
I’m not the elite fluid-mechanics expert that Carldelo is. I’m just a regular guy with no special training who looks for evidence of how applied forces work. I like to point out how if you carefully look at the water behind ANY paddler, you can see patches of moving, swirling water that remain in motion for several minutes after their boat has gone by. There’s nothing remotely “locked” about the water where their paddle blades were acting, and I can’t imagine what a person might do to cause the water at the point of blade insertion to become “less watery”. I do a lot of rowing, so on a really calm day, I can actually see those paired swirls trailing off into the distance behind me. That’s a lot of water set in motion by my propulsive efforts.
If you think you are going to race or compete then the wing paddle is the way to go. But if you go that way expect a learning curve. Understanding it in theory is one thing, mastering it on the water is something entirely different. In a sense, most of us are always still on the learning curve with it to become more efficient. I personally use a wing paddle for even my recreational paddles because the efficiency of it is just silly to give up. But if racing or pure efficiency is not the main objective, then explore other options. Oh, and know that the wing blades come in different surface areas/sizes so get one that doesn’t yank your shoulders out from their sockets. I learned that lesson the hard way. The big blades are great for short sprints but not for long distances. Have a fun time trying them all! https://davethekayaker.com/2015/12/04/enter-the-wing-paddle/
Mountainpaddler, Thanks for your views. I’m using a Euro in that image, but I don’t particularly like that image much either as the blade is not yet fully planted and even with a wing, I don’t like my upper hand higher than my chin, I also prefer for the elbows to be below the shoulders. That said, Max is also showing much more arm lift than GP technique employs. I strongly believe that a stroke that employs a lot of arm lift is going to stress the shoulders more than a lower stroke, over many miles, as you are simply lifting more weight per stroke.
This is more related to technique (including how widely you hold the paddle) than the paddle type itself. Even people like Oscar are now teaching much lower arm positions with a wing with the shoulders kept in a more compact position.
For long distance I hold a wing with a narrower hand width than standard and also hold the paddle lower, as described in the blog. You lose some speed but do gain stability and a stroke that is easier to maintain over many hours or days.
An added point, for long distance kayaking, I think that many people use wings that are much too large. It’s common to see people using a mid-wing in 300 miles races that are more suited for fast 10 - 20 milers, IMO. Even a small-mid-wing is a fairly large blade to my preference. I prefer much smaller wings (e.g. Gara Odin Small). Lee McGregor impressed this into me in training that I took with him. Unless you are sprinting, the smaller blades will move you along just as fast, once up to speed.
Greenland kayakers might also enjoy experimenting with parallel wing blade shapes, as like a GP, the power takes a moment to build, unlike the common teardrop wing shapes. Teardop shape wing blades are known for strong front-loaded power, but with less stability at the end of the stroke. Parallel wings have a more linear power band and some feel they are easier on the body than the teardrop shapes. That said, this is all personal preference. I recently ordered a Meek small G-series parallel wing, to experiment more with parallel wings.
Greg
gstamer–you’re right, Max is showing a higher arm than most G-paddlers. The marathon K1 and surfski paddlers tend to drop a bit more. I’ve never really looked to see how those guys compare to standard GP. I don’t have any experience with GP but find them very interesting. I would like to try one for rolling sometime. Like to hear what you think of the Meek. They seem to be a hit down under.
carldelo and Guideboatguy, Like I said, I don’t pretend to be a professor of hydrodynamics. I’m a paddler, primarily interested in racing–which makes me hyper-focused on the application of the best tools in an optimized fashion. I definitely don’t come to P-com to engage in scholastic debates. I acknowledge that everyone has their own unique reasons for paddling, but this is where my attention goes. With that being said, I am mostly interested in others that have placed their focus into the application of paddling performance.
So with this in mind, have a look at the attached video. If you don’t want to watch the whole thing, watch from 38 seconds through 1:00.
This is coming from a Ph.D and one of the most renowned Olympic coaches in the game today. He is the architect of several gold medals and has spent a lifetime involved in the sport. If you get a chance, have a look at the whole series of videos–they are well worth it!
Anyway, thanks for your input. Always a pleasure to hear other’s opinions and exchange ideas.
Cheers!
https://youtube.com/watch?v=d7Dav9wqNa0
Also, if you don’t want to watch the video–here is the reference to a study regarding locking the blade/trajectory.
(It’s at 3:00)
Cool video
I would say that the word “lock” is an unfortunate and misleading term. All they are really doing during that “locking” process is doing their best to maximize lift (thrust produced in-line with the boat), and they could have simply explained it in such terms. While process will reduce or eliminate backward slippage of the blade as compared to a stationary point in space (do it extremely well and the blade could even move forward), the forward-backward position of the blade is still not stationary with regard to the water around it because that water has been set into motion by the force applied to it, and during that actual process there is what you could call “slippage” (without that slippage, the blade would move dramatically forward during that outward slicing motion, but that is not what happens). Carldelo can explain it better, but that’s how I interpret the “lock”.
GBG - I think your explanation is clear and accurate.
I look forward to reviewing the video.
@Guideboatguy said: :
I would say that the word “lock” is an unfortunate and misleading term.
so is “roll”
