WS Tempest speeds

Your interaction with me. I gave you my interpretation of my stats. You can calculate using a 7.5 minute topo map or a chart for determining distance. Steve Z. reminded me that those maps are certified, accurate, and reliable. The more I’ve cross checked, I’ve become more confident with my calculations, but every time I post data, somebody talks about rotation of the earth, sunspots, intentionally dumbing the accuracy down, perception vs. reality. Nobody has disproven or shown me errors to prove my statistics wrong. How fast I did sone trip is irrelevant, until someone asks how fast a 14.5 foot boat can be paddled over a distance of 3 mile, 10 miles, 15 miles, 21.5 miles, or 38.75 miles, I can give solid information based on checks and counter checks. I’ve been told GPS isn’t reliable, and speed depends on tides and wind, which I have plenty of access to. I’ve posted trips on calm days and trips with S 10 - 15 mph wind, gusting to 20 mph.


There it is. Tell me which way is into wind and current and which way was going with it. You can’t because I learned how to manage my energy and read the speed display on a GPS. Rather than asking how I kept a flat line, I typically hear how low angle will make the boat waddle like a duck, speed depends on wind waves and currents - IT DOES NOT. Speed depends on the paddler’s skill and energy management. Rather than discredit what you don’t know, shut up and analyze data, then make up your mind based on the information at hand. The problem is that too many people are on a high horse because they have a go faster kayak and don’t believe statistics because they can’t personally do it. I have nothing to hide. Lying about accomplishment is ludicrous. You don’t even know me, so why would I embelish.

I know what tide does to impede speed vs wind. I know what a N 10-15 mph wind, gusting to 25 mph will do. Normally, I managevto control for it and get a relatively flat line. I tried that yesterday and it kicked my ass. If you haven’t tried to manage a flat line though changing conditions, simply saying that it’s not possible doesnt make it not so. That’s just narcissistic.

Compare the speeds to the end of the season on 10 Nov 22, and the beginning of the season on 16 May 24. I dont know how big the waves, but my bow was flying and plunging into the next trough to wash over my deck. I also tried Craig’s 220 cm Ikelos and his 220 cm GearLab Greenland. That’s how you learn,by hooking up with other paddlers who can offer insight and willingly share. I wasn’t thrilled, but now I know. I felt like Chris Farley, a fat man in a little coat. Even though conditions were not vastly different. How I confronted the situation shows vastly different read outs. Think the GPS just spills out squiggly indistinguishable lines.


If anyone thinks I’m disrespecting them, ignore my comments and nobody will know I’mtalking about you.

As far as Craig’s calculations are concerned, the best way to find out is grab your app, GPS, book of calculations or voodoo cards, and your fastest boat and paddle, eat your bowl of Wheaties and a banana for breakfsast and go out for a paddle with him. I saw him paddle the 180 Tempest. He has nothing to prove. It doesn’t matter whether you believe him. The only people it matters to is someone looking for advice on how to improve high angle paddling skills. He does have that, which explains his speeds in a 175 Tsunami.

I don’t have time for circular arguments. If I can’t present the information in a coherent way, I’ll compare paddling details on side channel with kayakers who share info openly and don’t shoot things down before trying it. Some people are intellectually capable of listening to babble and interpret the grunts and gestures. I’m just happy someone can make sense out of the data I provided.

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I paddle exclusively in South Florida. There is nothing that makes you paddle faster then the sound of a gator sliding of the bank into the water. :grin:
I paddle a canoe so I am a little farther from the water that I would be in a kayak but I still think twice about paddling in fresh water during the active gator season. I keep mostly to the intracoastal waterway.

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Try to grasp what the word “cruising” speed means in many forms of vehicle’s. You’ll probably feel better. :laughing:

Cruising speed is the speed you can maintain over the course of “X” miles. That depends on each paddler and whether they can manage to use aerobically or rely on aneorobic exertion, which will probably limit cruising for far shorter distances. If you look at the slower trip, cruising speed was 3.8 mph and went as low as 3.2 mph and as high as 5.6 mph, bit peaked as high as 6.4 to 6.5 mph. I call it 3.8 or 3.9 if I didn’t stop and play with testing paddles or explore the salt marshes.




Google definition of cruising

Speed you cover over X miles is average speed.

Not cruising speed to me.

OP ask about cruising speed not racing.

Who said I didn’t believe Craig,?

His speeds are normal for a sea kayak and average person not at maximum effort.

Being around boats for 60 years most people would say cruising speed in a motorized boat is about 2/3 throttle or RPM available.

How to Find the Ideal Cruising Speed on Your Boat | Mercury Marine.

That isn’t racing for me. That’s normal pace. Then cruiding speed is whatever you’redoing at the moment…

Cruising speed to me is the speed a paddler can sustain in an aerobic state. That means being able to paddle and be able to carry on a conversation without having to stop talking without the need to catch your breath. That’s cruising. Otherwise, you can make up any definition you prefer. Less than that effort is exploring or sightbseeing.

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Sorry all, by cruising speed I meant average speed over a measured amount of time. Or average mph. I’ll try and be a little more exact in my wording next time. Didn’t mean to cause any confusion.

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Now just ask about rudder or skeg? :joy:

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@Onski326, it’s not confusing. Average mph over time depends on the ability to manage your energy reserves and your physical conditioning. You’re already a strong paddler, and you have room to improve. Craig shows the potential over short distances when going into the aneorobic mode. That limits endurance to about 2 to 3 miles before energy is depleted.

By using your energy reserves aerobically, you can extend your range, gain better control of your breathing, and paddle faster with time as your cardio improves. You can optimize training using heart rate monitors and other aids, or you can simply run a training loop and measure progress. It doesn’t matter what the GPS or heart rate monitor says, as long as you can go from point A to point B in X time, or A to B and return to A in less time. If distance doesn’t change, and you consistently finish a few minutes faster on each trip, you’re progressing. If you keep track of condition, as well as when those conditions are similar, whether it’s favoring your progress or impeding it, you learn not only how those conditions impact your speed but how to manage them. You’ll never find consensus on an open forum. The arguments go to you need this paddle, or buy a faster boat or it depends on wind and current, what actually is meant by cruising, or the greatest dodge - speed isn’t everything. I pointed it out before, that if you’re paddling upstream on the Chesapeake Bay during the middle of a falling tide, you’ll face a least a 3 mph current. If you’re maintaining a 3 mph speed, that means your effort is equivalent to 6 mph. Open water is a dangerous place if you are not aware of conditions and how they affect your “speed” and your physical condition.

The best practice is to establish that training loop. Rely on a set distance and occasionally repeat that trip while measuring time. A GPS or speed graphs mainly help to analyze performance. On my last trip, I could have finished at around 4.1 mph avg speed if I had bypassed the paddle through the salt marsh and had not experimented with the short Ikelos paddle and the GearLab Greenland. However, it was time well spent as I got valuable first hand knowledge about paddle length, blade area, and paddle design. Discussions often extol the merits of a wood paddle providing buoyancy at the exit, but never consider the effort needed to fight the buoyancy through the power stroke, nor do many attribute the same benefit to a foam core Euro paddle.

If you operate any paddle boat away from the safety of a shore, you must be aware of your physical capabilities and condition yourself to improve. If you don’t, you have no contribution to this discussion. If you don’t have some way to monitor your progress so you can measure performance, you have no contribution to this discussion. If you don’t know and don’t care about how fast you can paddle and don’t care about how far you can paddle, you have no contribution to this discussion.

There are many types of paddlers. Some like sight seeing, others race (you’ll find that few on the racing circuit are eager to share closely guarded techniques, which lead us mere mortals to speculate). Still many others like to explore, cover distances, or simply test personal skill against the natural forces. If it’s the challenge that you seek, you’re asking the right questions, and I know exactly where you’re coming from. Craig an I have totally different padfling approaches, with him favoring high angle short paddles and my preference being low angle with longer paddles. His technique is flawless and it favors sprints; mine is somewhat more efficient for consistently covering greater distances. I seek methods to increase speed, but only in how it relates to covering greater distances in less time. Its about being able to stay in the 60% energy output zone until I get tired of sittingbin the boat.

I found that by getting out on the water within 3 to 5 day of the last trip, average speed can improve by around .05 to .15 mph (or around .1 mph per trip) based on my logs. The impact that wind, current and tides have on speed is a moot point to me, because I ALWAYS encounter wind, waves, and current. The influence is constant but varied, depending on the stage of the tide and the direction and duration of the wind, but if you stay onthe water long enough, the tides reverse around every 6 hour 40 minutes (plus or minus). There is a difference between tide and current, in that tidal currents change direction, but rivers have a constant outflow. Then in my area, the velocity, direction, and duration of wind has a different impact. If it comes drom the south, it has 100 miles to build.

The first chart shows that I had excess energy to burn, which is indicated by the area highlighted in white. The last 2 mile leg was all aneorobic. I know because it was paddling into the falling tide, and I know it elevated past standard aerobic output. I know because my notes detail the conditions and the chart shows I went faster on the last 2 mile leg (easier to calculate if enlarged. Notice going into or with conditions had no real impact on speed on thebother legs. That’s my cruising speed. It’s 60% exertion, which I can manage for 8.5 miles, 15 miles, 21.5 miles, 27 miles, or 32 miles. At 38.75 miles, I drop at least .3 mph. I know that, because I compare records. I’ve learned how to manage my energy. If I go into an anerobic state, i can jump .5 mph for about 60 to 90 seconds, but I’ll drop speed by about the same amount for about 3 minutes. While the fractions can be challenged, the actual trend is clear. Paddling until you’re breathing becomes labored will benefit in the short run, but it’ll add a significant penalty that can not be made up. You must remain aerobic to sustain your cruising speed. If you do, your range largely depends on how long you can tolerate being confined.

Compare the (I believe) 11 Oct trip and the 13 Oct trips. Three days later, I should have improved by .1 mph, but the avg speed dropped by .2 mph, under very similar conditions of winds and tides, but the second day had gusts to 25 mph. Although October was at the peak of the season, the gusts had a similar impact on the paddling and the track on the trip I took two days ago. Split hairs about the fractions, but you can’t miss the similarities. Notice also how there was no speed spike during the last 2 miles. That tells me that I was performing at my optimal aerobic threshold. I peeked out and had no excess energy to bleed off - that is MY cruising speed. Compare that to the 11 Nov 22 trip, the last of that season posted earlier at the beginning of this thread. Notice it was 4.84 avg mph, compared to 4.6 mph, or roughly .1 mph faster for each of the final trips that ended the season. Again, aplit fractions if you must, but the trends repeat, and I can predict outcomes.




The odd impression I have from posting these statistics is that the information or method of collecting is typically challenged. However, nobody has ever asked how I manage to keep a flat speed graph going into or with conduction. I’m sure others can donit, but that hasn’t been made public. The apparent consensus is that the results are spurious. I’ve also been told that a 145 Tsunami can’t be paddled at 4.99 avg mph for 21.5 miles. That was my cruising speed when I was 60 yrs old. My cruising speed speed now is about 4.5 mph during mid season. That’s as good as it gets. You should be able to get 5 mph over distance in your 170 Tempest, if you control you energy output. Ironically, advice for going faster results in videos of olymic paddlers flailing to the finish line in 200 or 400 meter sprints. That will not work over a 10 to 30 mile course, yet nobody will point that out. Realistic discussions are sidetrack as spurious in favor of promoting wildly unrealistic techniques - therefore, the question goes unresolved.

I guess you bought this place huh?

:laughing:

Not sure what that means.

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@Kevin777 I went down there to see the manatees, and paddled some of the crystal rivers there, and let me tell you the gator sliding up on you, well lets just say I also made the Kessel run in under 12 parsecs.

I also needed a change of underwear.

I’m pretty sure that Day I went to plaid.

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Well I’m pretty sure you were saying a man’s got to know his limitations.

And then he laughed, so either he knows his limitations, and feels improvement is not possible, is Superman and has no limitations or is full of sh*t and is just here to troll people.

So since we can rule out the superman angle… I’ll leave speculation of the other options up to you.

Me I think it’s maybe a bit of column A and a bit of column B.

But Aside from that in going over the historical data I’m no closer to 6mph than before my Average data track for speed, shows me at 4.99mph, the 180 degree turn at mile 2 kills me, I cant seem to get a better than 3.8/4 mph turn about. once I’m back n a straight line things are 5+ mph.

That dip, correlates right at the halfway point. of the map track where the turn is. So that the part where I need to be faster. Edging a turn didn’t seem to help, using the rudder didn’t seem to help, rudder and edging didn’t seem to help.

The only thing the rudder did was slow me down more than edging but made the 180 in half the radius of edging alone, and edging and rudder tightened that up more, but each step to tighten the turn drops the forward speed. That knocks .6-.9 off my max to lower my average speed.

This seems consistent for the past three years, of course this is the first year knock on wood, that I’m not awaiting back surgery, post back surgery, post covid so maybe th powers that be willing that I don’t get knocked down just before paddling season that I can keep working out to get stronger, and up my cardio game that I can achieve that goal. Maybe not but It’s something to shoot for. Because dammit I’m sick of 3rd place medals…

if anyone has an idea of how to speed turn a hard chined boat faster that I’d love to hear, I got straight down. Boat looks like a fish, paddles like a fish, turns like a cow.

It means who are you to say who can and cannot make a contribution to any subject here unless you bought the place.

That’s funny! Did you actually read anything anyone writes or do you skim it for selective comment. In the past, you frequently ask questions about content that had been covered in detail. I’m not going back to see where you got the impression that I feel I could decide who should or should not comment. Instead, I’ll just say that I’m not surprised you found my remarks offensive, and can only add that old cliché, “If the shoe fits, wear it.”

In every conversation about speed that I comment about, you’re mantra is how speed depends on wind and tide. That comment implies that the posted data about speed is no more than cherry-picking (selectively posting favorable data) to gain bragging right or for some other shallow reason. Shortly after I joined the forum, I responded to someone’s unfavorable comment about the speed potential of the 145 Tsunami. The data from three trips showed how the slight against the Tsunami design was unwarranted. “You” joined the thread to flatly and publicly stated that you didn’t believe me, because a you explained, “A Tsunami isn’t capable of going that fast.” I ignored being called a liar by someone who never met me and knew nothing about me.

That challenge made me curious about how much the wind and tides actually influenced speed averages on different trips. My logs include time of day, boat/paddle used, solo or partner trips and the boat/paddle they used; total time/moving time/stopped time; avg speed/max speed; distance, as well as an adjacent page with air/water temp, humidity, wind/speed direction and gusts, time of low and high tide in the area where I’m paddling [incidentally, the test circuit I paddle has a tidal datum point at apex of my two mile turn - Battery Point, so tidal data for my trip location is official record]. When I had time, I went back to the logs and found several trips to the same areas, where only a portion was influenced by tide, as well as trips that were similar distances (15 - 16 miles) that flowed mostly in the direction of tidal current or wind, as well as against it. I found that wind and tidal influence, either with or against had an influence, but it was limited to a few tenths of an mph. I posted a series of log entried. Again, you’re replied was the mantra - depends on wind and tides. You had the data, but again it appears that you only read things that validate you belief.

The OP asked for advice about cruising speed, then we seemed to depart on a discussion about what cruising speed is. Then the mantra about wind and tides. My definition of cruising speed is the average speed between measured point over a specific period of measured time. So if you paddle 10 miles in 2 hours, that’s an average of 5 mph. I consider that cruising, not overall average including rest breaks,
not maximum speed, not the speed where you didn’t push yourself. If you feel differently, describe your definition, but I pray it isn’t that worn out mantra about wind and current.

In reaction to your sneers, I began posting conditions with speeds. It doesn’t surprise me that you don’t recall challenging GPS readings as being inaccurate. There was a thread asking how other members felt about the past season. I expressed being happy with my progress since shoulder surgery, because I reached within .16 mph of a best average over my test course. You made it a point to school me about GPS inaccuracy. So I crunched the numbers for you, gave the data, went through conditions, margins of error, showed you the miniscule correction that would amount for each recaculation. Then I asked you or any of you peeps who joined the man-splaining to tell me how close I came to reaching my previous level of physical conditioning. Still waiting . . . Still waiting!

The irony is that I actually figured out how much the winds, tides, current and shallow water influence speeds. I actually posted data and accompanying graphs about how to predict and moderate power output to flatten speed spikes to avoid peaks and valleys and improve overall speeds. The disinterested members simply interjected: “Speed isn’t everything!” To that, my question to them is, “Why are you reading a post about speed in a 170 Tempest???” Is that a tacit suggestion to drop the topic, simply because its of no intetest to them, therefore, it shouldn’t be of interest to anyone else.

Another incident occured early on where I mentioned speed. Someone who didn’t know me or interjected a rude comment about new members bragging about capabilities. I didn’t consider my comment to be a brag. It was more towards disappointment. My reply was deleted by the Gods, but I hope it at least my reaction reached the person who posted the comment. A critic also admonished me for high jacking a post. I included the original post and asked what constituted a high jack. No commment, no apology, no corrrection. Now you tell me I believe I should be able to screen content. No offense taken. I view it as a lack of reading the full content or miscomprehension.

You make a point of challenging my data, yet in one thread, a member asked for advice on how to increasing speed over a 10 mile course, your advice was a series of videoes demonstrsting how to Olympic contestants paddle a 200 or 400 meter sprint. Ironically, nobody brought up winds or tides, nor did they scoff the desire for speed. Another point that was not mentioned by anyone is how its not possible to paddle that pace for 10 miles.

It doesn’t matter to me what anyone posts, but it sure frustrates me to be challenged with hard data while reading that and feel like a new member is being cajoled, but it doesn’t matter, because if anyone tried doing that routine and couldn’t figure out it doesn’t work, god bless them! So @PaddleDog52, don’t look for me to censor your comments. Post your heart out.

Find a way to hook up and paddle with @Craig_S. See if you can school him and come way with the same opinion. Anyone who thinks my comments are fluff, feel free to pass on reading it. I get paid the same.

@Jyak I think I understand where his comments about wind and tide come from, and I get it but the reasoning may be misguided on his end.

I know for me Wind Will slow me down, or speed me up, but not significantly enough to matter too much. I’ve been in ideal conditions and quite less than Ideal conditions. and wind seems to maybe affect me only if it’s blowing big waves up. There going into the wind is not so much a detriment as the Tsunami, having almost no rocker tends to punch through the rollers whereas a boat with big rocker tends to ride up and over.

That up and over is well paddling uphill and that kills your speed, I noted this when I did my 15 miler the more rocker the boats had the more they slowed in the 28" waves. where I stayed pretty much constant and punched through. though any bigger chop and I would have needed the spray skirt. luckily the chop broke off the deck before the cockpit.

Going with wind blown chop especially if it’s big, well that speeds me up significantly, since I cut my teeth on white water I know how to surf waves and I surf them like a fish. Easily exceeding hull speed there. and of course the lack of rocker there makes the boat work like a long board surfboard.

but that either isn’t going to affect the GPS readings of speed. Wind and tide may affect you speed up or down depending on your skill set, but never the readout. And since your tools, and mine both give you a top speed, and Average, they both also give you graphing of speed. and of course you have the time and distance, that you can math out to double check the GPS read out. So the GPS is accurate read of speed and feed, AFIC, conditions non-withstanding.

But I think the problem here is he’s conflating the conditions affecting performance with the GPS reading the performance, It’s basically a speedometer and that doesn’t care whats going on all it knows is how fast your going. (and in my case My Heart rate, O2 levels and whatnot.)

SO then his issue may just boil down to not understanding how to optimize his performance for the type of boat he has, his conditioning and the prevailing conditions. IDK whay has caused this perception NDIC. But based on the objections I’ve read from him there is something going on that’s hampering him.

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Wind and current will definitely affect speed. If you paddle against a 15 mph headwind, it will definitely slow you down. If paddling against a 3 mph current, it will slow you down about 3 mph for the same effort. Of course, the opposite is true.

However, these will not affect what the GPS reads as far as actual speed. It will read what it is relative to a fixed point. If the average paddler tries paddling against a 6 mph current in a standard sea kayak for any distance, the GPS will probably indicate that they are standing still, if not moving backwards.

I know from experience that I cannot make much headway in open water paddling against a 25 mph or greater headwind and I would not bother to paddle against a 6 mph or greater current.

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