High angle paddle(too long) with low angle stroke?

Advice
#142

Don’t read it. It’s easier to criticize if you don’t understand it. If you are happy with your technique, I urge you to keep it up. What does iritate me is a self described experienced paddler furnish BS information. I hear terms like high angle and low angle paddling, high angle paddles and low angke paddles. Then on closer scrutiny, i hear how a high angle paddle works better for low angle paddling than a low angle paddle. Then am I correct in understanding that the referenced high angle paddle is a Cyprus 210 cm that has 95 sq in blades that is superior to the Kalkiste 230 cm with a 99.7 sq in blade. COULD ONE OF YOU EXPLAIN THE LOGIC OF THAT. i dont care what you think.

Not one of you would recommend a 230 cm paddle for high angle, but did anyone compare a 210 cm Kalliste to a 230 cm Cyprus for both high angle and low angle. Do you measure your performance or simply make it up. So far I see nothing that supports your claim. All y’all quote scientific journals but you can’t read a post that supports the performance claims and benefits. Can you even do the simple math to figure out whether a 95 sq in paddle or a 99.7 sq in paddles provide the same resistance. Ignoring the name attributed to the paddle:

  1. can you not at least agree that 230 cm is inappropriate as a high angle paddle when compared to a 210 cm paddle.

  2. do you believe a 95 sq in blade provides more resistance than a 99.7 sq in blade.

  3. can you show me a graph of the superior performance you experience using your superior high angle technique with you favorite paddle. Show me a screen shot. Write a number on a piece of paper. Make it up. Tell me your cadence, the kayak, and the paddle you use. At this point, I believe you’re claims and judgement are the result of faulty perception. I resent the possibility that you are misleading inexperienced kayakers with drivel. Otherwise put it up. My rhetoric is supported by detailed logs. You rely on your integrity and reputation.

#143

“The most valuable of all talents is that of never using two words when one will do.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

3 Likes
#145

Works for me!

#146

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1 Like
#147

I saw the movie. Double feature with the Bible.

1 Like
#148
  1. NO
  2. NO
  3. NO

Ok?

#149

Does your rant relate to anything I’ve said previously on this thread? Not as far as I can tell.
I suppose your first sentence offers the best advice.

1 Like
#151

Two more:
“You do not have to explain every single drop of water in a rain barrel. The reader will get it.” - George Singleton
“You thunder and lightning too much and the reader ceases to get under the bed…” - Mark Twain

5 Likes
#153

Just in case

According to most estimations, a gallon of water contains approximately 15,000 drops based on a typical faucet drip size, which is around 0.33 milliliters per drop; however, the exact number can vary slightly depending on the faucet and drop size.

Key points to remember:

  • Average drop size:

A standard faucet drip is usually considered to be around 1/3 of a milliliter.

  • Calculation:

Since a gallon is roughly 3.78 liters, which is 3,780 milliliters, dividing by the average drop size (0.33ml) gives you around 15,000 drops per gallon.

[image]

USGS (.gov)

Drip calculator: How much water does a leaking faucet waste? USGS Water …

There is no scientific definition of the volume of a faucet drip, but after measuring a number of kitchen and bathroom sink faucets, for our calculations below …

City of St Helens Oregon

#154

If 52 happens to be your birth year, it was a good one.

1 Like
#155

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Correct

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Was supposed to be born in February 53 couldn’t wait.

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:laughing:

Got bricks at the bottom for my business/ trade.

#157

I use a long , thin blade to protect my beat up shoulder.

#158

Well Craig gave you the answer. Unaided by current or wind he did 6.37 mph for three miles.

Never heard his sprint speed yet.

If you can’t swing a big blade get a smaller one. If a lower stroke is better for your body use it. Personally I can’t use a kallista paddle to go fast. Too many SPM to get anywhere. I’d rather swing a big blade at 50-60 SPM than a kallista at 90+.

You should be able to paddle with your paddle whatever it is for 45 minutes without stopping for safety’s sake.

#161

I asked the sprint speed several times . On a lake with no wind or tides it’s a good measurement of your hull and your power.

#164

I have to point out again that this is only a problem I can’t seem to get past in 1 of my 3 kayaks. In the Perception Sea Lion and in the Eddyline Fathom I can dig in like I am being chased and it either is not a problem, or the problem is small enough that a firm grip overcomes it. ONLY in my Chatham17 is it a problem I can’t seem to get past. It’s frustrating because my best timed runs have all been in my Chatham17 and yet the “fastest paddle” can’t be used by me in my fastest kayak, if I go “full power” with it.
My only clue so far is that my butt is lower in the water in the Chatham then it is in either of the other 2 kayaks. The Chatham is only 1/2 inch narrower then the Fathom and the Sea lion is 3.5" wider. But both the Sea Lion and the Fathom have seats that sit higher off the hull’s bottom then the Chatham. The Sea Lion has the lowest freeboard, but the highest seat and it can’t be lowered because of the stiffing tube used along the keel line in that model.

So lowering my whole body that much seems to make a difference although I can see no reason it should.
Maybe someone here can tell me why?
Or maybe I am distracted and there is another factor somewhere I just have not recognized?
I don’t know what I don’t know, so if someone out there knows (maybe a kayak builder ?) I’d love to hear from you.

#165

Steve, I wish I could help you here but I’m still trying to figure out my own stuff.

I think I’ve hit upon my optimal blade size, and paddle length, I had been thinking 220 was my optimal, for racing, and 230 was my optimal for long range touring or long range touring races+ and since good paddles were expensive I figured I’d split the difference at 225.

I’ll be the first to admit I was probably wrong, on the paddle lenght, after pulling all the paddles I have out.

My fastest race speeds were with the Aquabound Whiskey, I had thought my larger blades performed better but after exhaustive tests on two very different boats I found out of all the paddles larger and smaller than my whiskey, the Whiskey gave me my best 3 mile average at 5.8 in the Tsunami 175, 5.7 in the Tempest 170, and 6.3 in the Tempest 180 (Really 2.5 mi but close enough.)

Playing around with shaft lengths, on the whiskey, (My wife has one.) I ran her 220 and my 225 side by side and again saw that the 225 gave me a slight edge over the 220, about .05 mph in any of the three boats.

Running my Kuiai, in both 225 and 230, saw the same .05 difference in speed, granted I only ran 1.5, miles for this test for each paddle as I didn’t want to skew it be being spent since I’m only conditioned for 3 mile race.

Running my Sea Passage paddles, in 230 and 240 saw a marked speed decrease between the two, from the 230 to the 240 this was a .07 mph decrease. on the 240.

So this leaves me with either 230 or 235 is gong to be the right length, for me and me paddle style.

this is the culmination of “figuring my shit” out over the past 5 years. (and my spreadsheet is getting quite complicated.)

I’m still figuring out the Tempest 180 Pro, learning curve her for how it performs. The Tempest 170 performed exactly as expected. the hull speed math said it was .1 mph slower than the Tsunami 175 and paddling both saw me do 5.8 in the Tsunami, and 5.7 in the Tempest 170. Both of those boats under ideal and non-ideal go respectively the same speed and lose pretty much the same speed, when fighting the wind. but up to 30 mph wind it’s negligible. the Tempest 180 being the fastest boat in my fleet under ideal conditions is not the fastest under less than Ideal.

The only thing I can think of that would affect this is that it sits higher in the water than the Tsunami, or the Tempest 170. making it more of a sail. I’ll need to get more seat time to understand it better.

But I digress, as that’s not what I wanted to talk about today.

PD52, you wanted my pure sprint top speed, I don’t have that info for you its really meaningless because it’s not sustainable. Any idiot, can paddle balls to the wall full on and burn out rather quickly. The real trick here is paddling as fast as you can that is sustainable over your chosen distance.

My sustainable over 3 miles In a race (actual measured 3.2) is 5.8 mph in my Tsunami.
My sustainable in 10 Mile race is 5 Mph.
My sustainable in 15 mile is 5 Mph.
And that requires months and months of training for a few hours tops.

that’s why I only do 3 mile ones now the longer ones are pure conditioning that at my age is getting real damn hard to do.

All of them require me to spend 1-2 hours daily working out TUE-thurs Weight and Cardio Training. and M-W-F Pure cardio for an hour. Measuring my O2 uptake, Aerobic and Anaerobic times and when Aerobic switches to Anaerobic. Then weekend paddling as fast as I can go for up to 10 miles, and for the three months run up to the race every weekend and evening as well.

And even after all this I still get third. So if you’re not putting in the work don’t expect results.

I can’t give you short term duration sprint speed, because that’s not what I train for so that data is meaningless to me.

But what I will do for you is offer, anytime you want to come out with me and paddle, you’re more than welcome to, you can see for yourself how I do what I do, and maybe you can explain it to me because I’m still trying to figure out how I do what I do so that I can get better, because 3rd place in the races means that there are two other guys faster than I am in the 3 mile sprints for the past three years running. And what makes it quite annoying for me is they are 69 and 70 respectively. and generally beat me by around 10 boat lengths.

1 Like
#167

We can after race day, that’s on the 21st. maybe at Muddy run, I want to check out upstream among the boulder fields if the water is deep enough otherwise south for a bit between the islands. if that’s not too far for you. if it is we can always go at north-east, though the chuckleheads there in the speed boats not always watching where they are going annoys me. Last time there I had one or two zoom by too close. not too much of an issue for me but the boy I’m not sure knows how to do a good brace or prepare for close wake.

Then again I may leave him home. I really wanted to get around the point but had to come back as I didn’t want to leave him out in traffic by his lonesome.

#169

I asked a few times if he signs on he can see it in his notifications just like if I messaged him.

#171

@PaddleDog52 What did you ask? I have several hundred posts to browse, sowhat was it you were asking.

Top speeds? Told you don;t track it, its a meaningless number for me, I’m probably capable of getting close to hull speed but I dont track that.

I know from training and practice why my physical output needs to be to be sustainable over a given duration so at word go from a race, I accelerate (expend extra energy.) to hit that mark and then slack off and run at my sustainable pace for the distance intended.

So my top speed is 6.3 MPH Period, that was done over a 2.5 mile run I thought I had hit 3 but was short. so Top speed over 3 is probably somewhere in the 6 mph range as when I quit I would have had to slow down to continue paddling.

You are looking for pure sprint, and thats well dumb any idiot can push 100% for 50 yards, or 100, or more depending on conditioning.

The hull speed on the Tempest 180 (18 foot Layup Tempest) is 6.542 Knots. you can math that to MPH if you want. (hint its above 7 MPH.)

I’m probably within 80% of hull speed on that boat, I know I’m within 80% or near enough to hull speed on both the Tempest 170 (17 foot roto) and my Tsunami 175. Hell I’m also at about 80% of hull speed on my Aspire (10 foot.)

That pretty much sums up my performance over about 3 miles, I can run at 80% of hull speed regardless of the Yak I put my fat ass in at least if it’s a displacement hull.

the guys I race against, in touring class now they are world class. I’ve only managed to take 3rd consistently in the 3 mile races.

that should give anyone enough data, with connected brain-cells to figure out my performance metrics it’s really nothing spectacular.

the 1st and 2nd, were running close to 90% of their respective hull speeds, those are the guys I’m interested in.

And before you or anyone says get a bigger boat, 18 ft is the end of touring class. 18.1 is now race class and those guys are all running surf-skis. at 21 feet or something crazy like that.

but seriously what can I help you with. I’ve extended an invite to come paddling, lets figure out a date and a place. because if you don;t understand the explanations by now I can’t help you, as I’m quite a poor wordsmith.

1 Like
#172

I can say that I mostly agree with you. My primary question is whether you think a different technique could substantially improve my speed and sustain the same avg speed over 20 miles.