Even if you don't want to give up meat, as I don't, by cutting down your consumption you are helping the world and your health. Substituting beef, the most environmentally costly meat, with responsibly raised poultry, fish from sustainable fisheries, etc. all makes a difference. Plus it makes a difference in your health. Though there is no coronary disease in my family, my mother's sister just died of colon cancer, and it has really raised my awareness of my eating habits, which I can change now while I am still in my 20s. Even though I was pretty good about eating leafy vegetables, I now make a point to eat at least one serving a day, and I also take psillium.
Sorry… My father was a full professor, now emeritus, at the New York State College of Veterinary Medicine, and my brother is a practicing large animal veterinarian. I grew up on a small farm, raised sheep for 4-H, and don’t really buy the hype about animal cruelty in farming. Maybe it exists in some form, but I have not witnessed it.
most animals for human consumption are not raised on family farms and do not ever see a vet. in fact farming is really irrelevant to refer to in relation to meat production. read slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz its a book written in partnership with a former USDA vet who interviewed hundred of farm and slaughterhouse workers and how the Inspection system in slaughterhouses is a scam and non existent on farms. the workers at these animal factories say that cruelty is not only present but bred right into the system.
My family is extremely long-lived despite being carnivores. Regularly live into the late 90s, even 100s on both sides. Watchning them do that, I’m not sure I want to live wuite that long.
Inspection system a scam That’s why I shudder at the new trend of serving pork medium rare. When I go to a restaurant and they ask me how I would like my pork cooked, I reply “thoroughly”. When they reply “the chef recommends it be cooked to medium rare for best flavor” I order something else. The whole idea that it is now safe to eat pork cooked less than well-done stems on two assumptions: 1. Slop must be cooked before being fed to pigs, and 2. Carcasses are inspected. I trust neither. I have been to pig farms, they definitely attract rats, which carry trichinosis, and pigs love to eat rats, make better ratters than cats, so the cooked slop doesn’t satisfy me, and I don’t trust that a trained government inspector has carefully inspected every square inch of every carcass for trichinella cysts.
From Cornell News… “Cull cows are a huge resource of hamburger in this country, where 50 percent of the beef we consume is hamburger,” said Ted C. Perry, the beef cattle extension associate in Cornell’s College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. New York’s culled dairy cows account for three-quarters of all beef produced in the state; most of the 10.5 million pounds of hamburger eaten by New Yorkers each year comes from former dairy cows.
I believe all dairy farms are inspected by veterinarians.
We aren’t “meant” to live past 40… Only by modern medicine with its aseptic surgical techniques, immunizations, and antibiotics do we defy this limit. Therefore all conjecture about longevity, diet, and canned ham is just a bunch of SPAM! However, I think ellesmeared makes a great point about the ethical rationale behind vegan diet.
I might consider trying a vegan life, but I’m just too damned lazy, and once I have my martini after work I lose all sense of propriety with food. At least I buy my steaks from an organic, family-run farm in WI. Milk, too.
Erik the Red, whose lipids are askew, morals are questionable, but hey, can he paddle!
Actually humans lived regularly past 40 and were also taller until the advent of agriculture. Malnourishment became the status quo until the 20th Century.
The hunter-gatherer, having to rely on a more varied diet, got more vitamins, more protein. The farmer relied mostly on carb-rich but protein-poor and vitamin-deficient cereal grains as staple foods. But since tilled soil and domesticated crops produced more calories per acre than a wild area to be hunted and gathered from, farmers could live in larger groups, feed non-food producing members like soldiers and metal workers, so they had greater numbers and better weapons, and were able to force hunter-gatherers off lands, and the farming life prevailed. But before that, skeletons show that the average hunter-gatherer was much taller than people post-agriculture, and lived longer.
inspections farms are not inspected by any agencies, you can do what you want to the animals and unless someone complains the environment as well. the USDA only inspects slaughterhouses and they do little to enforce the Humane Slaughter Act. in fact there is no USDA inspector stationed where animals are actually killed of the 3-4 that would be at a large scale plant they are all centered around inspecting the carcasses.
"farming is really irrelevant to refer to in relation to meat production"
I just showed you that dairy farming was a significant in relation to meat production.
And now, one state for example....
"Dairy farm inspections (Minnesota)
Each year, MDA dairy inspectors inspect Grade A dairy farms twice and manufacturing grade dairy farms once to be sure the operation is producing milk in accordance with food safety laws. As part of these inspections, MDA inspectors make sure dairy farmers are using and handling drugs according to their labels. These drug inspection activities hold producers accountable to judicious drug use on their animals by:
identifying extra-label drug use;
making sure drugs are stored appropriately; and
verifying that labels are accurate."
Vegan for reasons of cruelty in my humble opinion is totally ridiculous. It is truly impossible to be “cruelty free”. Think about all the products you use on a daily basis, lotions, shoes, belts, etc. It is amazing what products contain animal products.
Its also amazing how much money is made by corporations that capitalize upon “cruelty free” activists. Its a choice, but if you can think critically you’ll see that living that lifestyle is nearly impossible. The company that sold you that hemp belt, probably owns a chicken factory or a veal production facility.
People who chose vegeterian for health reasons, well if you can get the variety and requsite balanced diet. Go for it!
Me I LOVE game meat. I haven’t eaten meat that I haven’t killed (with the exception of dinner with friends) in three years. Wild game is lower in cholesterol, fatty acids, and WAY healthier. Good venison is awesome! Elk, is plain amazing. Pheasant makes store-bought chicken taste like garbage. My cholesterol is extremly low, and I eat a lot of meat and take terrible care of myself (my work is very consuming).
I saw balance and moderation is the key, Veganizm is ridiculous, and vegeterianizm is a silly choice.
One last observation, please please please do not join or donate to PETA if you truly care about animals. The group is so extreme that most of the “core members” have no concept of ecology. For example they want animals that have been retired from circuses, that are living in wildlife sanctuarys “returned to the wild”. These animals lack the capacity to feed themselves, period. PETA is a scary organization, if you don’t believe me, google for Bearcat Hollow.
ellesmeared You lack a profile, so we don’t know where you live, but I imagine its a large city.
If you lived, spent time on a farm or ranch you might have a very different perspective on animal production.
Farming and ranching is fundmental to our history and tradition as humans. There are many locations in the world where vegetarianism is impossible. Imagine living in a place where you can’t go to the local grocery store to get your brewers yeast and hummus and peas out of season.
Voluntary veganism is in most cases a fad for the rich and privileged. There are many places where people eat fish or vegetable only once a month. They subsist on rice or wheat or gruel. I say “fad veganizm” in this country mocks those people.
i grew up in a small town but regardless, the arguments seem to all revert back to this idea that farmers are the soul of the nation providing food for the nation that i should be grateful for and not question how its produced. the fact is that most food, vegetables included is controlled by huge companies. thats what i mean when i say farming is irrellevant, their factories that produce chickens pigs or whatever. if the companies are not directly involved in the production of say milk they control the industry through the forced use of growth hormones like rBGH which Monsanto makes dairy farmers use. in fact monsanto actually sued Horizon organic milk for saying they wouldn’t use the hormone in their cows. Cargill, and ConAgra and Tyson control most of the slaughterhouses and if you care about people you wouldn’t buy their products either. slaughterhouse workers are one of the most exploited workforces. Unions are busted and illegal immigrants trucked in to keep wages amazingly low. Tyson and IBP have been investigated many times for animal cruelty violations, worker safety violations, and environmental violations. the amount of pollution produced by these huge factory farms and slaughterhouses is choking local waterways. look at the Delmarva it has 12 slaughterhouses and one of the densest concentrations of chicken houses in the world. all of this filters back down into the chesapeake bay.
OF COURSE no one is cruelty free but that is not a reason to say anyone who tries in eliminate their contribution to cruelty by buying alternatives is a hypocrite. (and i doubt there is a hemp company that also owns a veal farm)
I have a rule of thumb that I follow… regarding other persons descriptions of nutritional advice, gas mileage or sex life: Don’t believe a word of it. Just stand there and nod with a polite smile. This thread is a perfect indicator as to why my suspicion is such, in that the sources cited are extremely few, especially coming from the vegan fanaticism side. I’m a perfectly rational person that can analyze the content of an argument and decide which is best for me (or society) but blanket ststements like “vegetarians live longer than other humans” is pretty well stretched free of any nutrition. Which humans, the French or American ones? How about Icelandic or Japanese, Mexican African American, sub saharan African or Indian? How long for a Jew vs Arab? Does the economic aspect of the society or person within a society have anything to do with it? What about endemic diseases in the region?
Of the odd book or two cited in the thread we need a little guidance, books are for sale and their author’s are committed to their point of view. As a historian, evidence comes from primary source material, and I thus must not force a conclusion away from that. A scientist must remain faithful to testing procedure in order not to spin the results. An author that is neither scientist nor historian gets to do pretty damn well anything to sell you their book and persuade the like minded to follow the sound of their piccolo. National Geographic is a pretty good source, however they have a bias toward environmentalism. Which is fine, so do I, but you need to know it’s there. Which issue of National Geographic? I usually trust them and their interpreters but maybe I want to know where specifically that info can be found. I want to see their sources, how they worded it, etc.
If you are a vegetarian, the world of sea kayaking is very friendly to you. Just head over to the coop and choose the most delightful meals you can prepare in a camp and paddle away. However, if you are a fanatic vegetarian/vegan and you want to troll a thread espousing your views of animals, society, health, justice, etc., why not just say so? Human proseletyzing has many forms ranging from Pat Robertson to Ellesmeard, take your pick.
This is a real citation! Amazing someone brought a real citation to the thread. Good Job! Of course, since it doesn’t support some fanatic’s view point arguing for their perspective the source will be ignored. I wonder if there is something else going on?
fanatics response i was refering to animal welfare laws on farms. farms are specifically exempt from most state cruelty statutes and there is no USDA oversight on farms. Dairy production facilities are inspected for consumer safety.
here’s an interesting article that appeared in the washington post. take time to read it and then say i’m making things up.
i only weighed in when the thread turned from someone asking for recipes to people responding with snarky remarks about how he should eat grass and how vegans are crazy.
I don’t think you are crazy… and my only concern is that you get what you want out of it. I get a little snarky ( that’s a good word by the way, have to use it more) when the general tone gets preachy. The references can be a bit wanting, too. No perception of lost marbles here.
Apologies If I offended you. I too get a little tense about people who get preachy about “how great” veganism or vegetarinism is. I think my “ecological footprint” is just as good as the majority of veggies.
I’d also offer an interesting link that makes a good point about why being omnivourous is a good idea.
I appreciate the statement from her/his original post regarding the ethical rationale behind vegan living. This is the best argument I have heard on this topic. I don't agree with it, as I munch on my animal proteins, but I respect it. I don't think it was intended to be preachy, condescending, or snarky, which I agree is a fabulous adjective. Our common bond here is paddling, and, I dare submit, a taste for good fermented spirits on a paddling trip. (Teetotalers, who needs ya?) Let us not be rent asunder by our differing approaches to caloric intake. As long as we deliver glucose to the mitochondria to perform the necessary oxidative phoshphorylation, does it really matter how we achieve that end?
Peace, paddlers,
Go Vikings,
Erik