I run my Tsunami 175, mostly because its my favorite boat, it also takes more effort to paddle than the Tempest 180 so it gives me a better workout and better training for racing. kinda lie switching from nascar to formula 1
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The best feature is how itâs effortless to balance, easy to control, and reacts predictably to wave. It just needs a bit more power to get up to speed, which means itâs easier to paddle with current than agsinst.
I believe you, maybe LOLâŚbut what kind of boat is that? Iâm stunned that a 14.5-foot boat thatâs 23" wide would go that fast even with the strongest Olympic sprinter on Earth paddling itâŚbut Iâm open to being convinced. 
(Or unless you have pencils for legs, LOLâno weight âbelow the cockpit rimâ to speak of!) The Tempest 170 is 22" wide and 17â long and Iâm certain it wonât go 6mph even if Greg Barton were paddling it in his prime. Hull designs all have maximum speeds they wonât exceed unless you can plane the boat outâŚ
Dangit, you guys are gonna make me go read all this physics stuff now, LOL.
Iâm still astounded that anyone could paddle a (plastic) Tempest 170 (for example) 6mphâŚbut I admit, Iâve never tried an all-out sprint (for, say, 50 meters) in mine. The top speeds I describe (around 5mph, maybe a bit more depending on conditions) are average (not max) speeds over at least a solid 1-2 hours of paddling (so definitely sustained speed for that entire timeâno slowing down, no stops for rest or food, just continuous paddling). And usually in chop and wind waves, often into a 10-15mph headwind. (Rarely dead-calm conditions.)
Iâd be a jerk if I said I have âperfectâ techniqueâŚbut I do paddle (Iâm guessing here) maybe 85-90% with my back via core rotation. (And I use my legs too, to engage outer core muscles.) Which is the only reason I can sustain 4.5-5mph for an hour or two. And Iâve been paddling hard for decades, so Iâm assuming my body is pretty well-conditioned (over time) to do it. And I just donât think I could sustain 6mph for more than a few seconds, LOL.
On a practical level, just this past weekend, I went for a 12-mile out-and-back paddle on the Lower Umpqua River on the Oregon coast just a couple miles from the Pacific (in my Tempest 170). I somewhat miscalculated and had to paddle the 6 miles back on the return leg against a solid 2.5-3kt ebb tideâŚso I figure I was averaging 2-2.5mph tops. It was a slog! (But I was also able to avoid some of that current by hugging the shore and staying in long eddies and slack water.)
I could never have done it if I werenât in pretty good shapeâŚand I kept thinking that any âaverageâ recreational kayaker would have been in trouble had they found themselves 6 miles downriver when the tide started going out. (I was pretty wiped-out when I got back to the put-in.)
I only mention that as a practical, âeverydayâ example of a situation that I knew I would be able to handle (but not in a shorter boat or not if I didnât paddle as often, long or hard as I normally do).
Scott
So far my measured top speed with my 14â5" long Epic 14X kayak on shallow flatwater was about 5.7 knots (6.5 mph) for about half an hour (with the rudder up).
Donât know if that is the top speed but probably the 14X does have a Speed/Length ratio of 1.51?
Nevertheless this kind of speed is confirmed for the Epic V5 in this article:
as the 14X has the hull design of the V5.
Shadepine, I have been around kayak racing for 1.5 years now and those numbers of kanoniem and the barton graph (from article) are waaaaayyy off. I believe none of itâŚlol.
" Note from Greg Barton on the graphs: âBear in mind that these are my estimates and not necessarily 100 percent accurate numbers"
Well in fact the measured speed was a bit higher (11 km/h) done by someone riding on a bicycle on the road next to the canal I was paddling who was challenging me a bit 
And I also could not believe I was that fast, but the charts in the article shows that a speed of 5.7 kn (10.5 km/h or 6.5 mph) is possible for the 14X. And interestingly, 5.7 kn also matches its hull speed calculated with an S/L ration of 1.51 for slender lightweight hull designs.
Nevertheless the point here is that the so called hull speed depends on the design and not length alone. Boats with a very low length/displacement-ratio, high length/beam-ratio and high Speed/Length-ratio can be paddled faster than their hull speed without planing: with a Speed/Length ratio of 2.2 a 17 feet long Flatwater Sprint kayak has a hull speed of about 16.7 km/h but can reach a speed of 20 km/h without planing!
But for most touring paddlers hull speed is irrelevant, because they donât paddle that hard.
Even though I have been suggested to use a 18X instead, that design is way to big for me (at 150 lb) to make a real speed difference at my maximum cruising speed of about 5.7 mph (9 km/h). In fact I may be slower overall in this boat. I would not mind to have a 16X though, but mainly because of the better rudder system.
Well Iâm an overgrown Sasquatch at 6â2" (actually 6â2.5") Iâve generally been about 250Lbs for most of my races though this year Iâve managed to get to 240 so weâll see if that helps or hinders. And I guess I get the numbers I get the same way bumblebees canât fly, nobody told me I couldnât.
So I do.
Though in reality itâs a ton of physical conditioning and cardio and about 50 years of tweaking my technique along with a heaping spoonful of stubbornness.
The topic of hull speed gets confusing. There is a difference between âhull speedâ and a âhull speed formulaâ. Hull speed describes a theoretical transition between additional power and how it relates to increased speed. To generalize the topic, the traditional or original formula essentially provides a mathmatical expression to calculate the behavior or water. Water has a specific weight (not to go into the rabbit hole about the temperature of the water or density of fresh vs. salt water). Since it canât be compressed, it must be moved aside. Because it only stacks so high before it will flow back to level again, the displaced water exerts a predictable force against the boat.
The simple formula just uses what we know about the properties of water and predicts the speed and wave length between the peaks of the resulting waves. The chart only shows when a hull of a specific length will stall and get trapped inside the trough. It doesnât assert that the hull wonât be able to go faster. Rather, it shows that the energy to escape the trough isnât linear; the power requirement grows exponentially. Whatâs implied in that equation is the concept of a sweet spot, or how much power exceeds the prudent amount of energy needed to increase speed.
Although this isnât precisely the same, consider automobile fuel economy and how a car has a fixed amount of fuel on board. The new car sticker reflects a calculated fuel economy rating for start and stop driving, as well as highway driving, yet the variables are approximations and will not match actual driving conditions or driving style. Consider the difference between accelerating and slowing gently, or taking off with jack-rabbit starts, then maintaining full power until a panic stop at the next light. With my speed control at 80 mph, 65 mph, or 45 mph, the best economy range for both my truck and car is in the sweet spot of around 65 mph. Although both have a 19 gal tank, the truck with a 6-cylinder engine can only go about 360 miles before running out of fuel, while the car with an 8 cylinder engine has gone up to 540 miles on a full tank of gasoline.
Paddling a kayak is similar. The closer the kayak approaches the actual âhull speedâ sweet spot, the more energy the output. Similarly, the more efficient and consistent the applied power, the longer your energy reserves will last. Generally speaking, the richer the fuel mixture the more power, while the leaner the mixture, the greater the efficiency. Translated to the kayak, how the power is used depends on your goal of short term speed, or long duration availability. In a sprint race, the goal isvto use all of yource energy within the race window, while touring, the goal should be a conservation mode.
@kanoniem, I donât challenge speed claims and believe that your power output is extreme. However, the primary question for anyone who didnât witness the event is the recording accuracy.
You shouldnât feel abused by doubters. Iâve been challenged on everything from the conditions Iâve reported, the peak speeds, and average speeds, despite posting the digital data, track, conditions, and charts that at least validated the claims. I know the data is true, but canât vouch for the error rate or accuracy of the GPS or the phone app. Iâm absolutely confident in my stats, because I cross check it by calculating distance and factoring the time to cover it. Despite my scrutiny and cross checking of stats, that doesnât certify validity.
Craig_S has posted some unbelievable stats paddling a 175 Tsunami. When I saw his posts, I was astounded, because I own a 175 Tsunami. I consider myself a strong paddler and accepted his claims after reviewing his data. When he furnished his heart rate and oxygen readings, his charts highlighted similarities in my speed spikes which Inwaa able to correlate to his heart rate/blood oxygen levels. Since I rely on my aerobic threshold to set power output, I gained a better understand of the relationship between effort, speed, efficiency, and longevity. Any disbelief about the veracity of his claims vanished when I actually paddled with him. Superficially, this seems linked to speed, but it is not. Craig doesnât win because heâs faster. He wins because he understands how to manage engine output more efficiently.
Craig and I discussed faster boats. My conclusion considered whether the goal was to beat a comperitors, upgrade the boat, or developing a superior paddling technique. He still has a high regard for the 175 Tsunami.
Hand powered boating is not always about power as much as efficiency, even when racing. A slow hull can beat a faster design, if the paddler demonstrsted greater efficiency. Hull speed is simply a guideline. The performance that Craig, Shadepine or I attribute to a specific kayak has less to do with hull speed than energy management. Since studying my data, I achieve lower speed spikes, but the results are more consistent, regardless of conditions. Yet the effort yields higher average speeds with kess effort or pain in my joints.
It doesnât matter to me who follows my advice. The goal is to just put what Iâve learned into perspective. âHull speedâ is a guiide. Length of the hull only relates to when it will match the length of two wave peaks. Such things as displacement, shape of the bow/stern, chine configuration, hull form (whether symmetric, narrower in the front or behind the cockpit, or the amount of rocker, it will impacts speed by only a fraction in comparison to length. Refining the formula works if you have all the elements for the equation, but youâll provably find the difference insignificant.
Why bother with hull speed? Good question, especially when the âhull speed chartâ puts you in the ball park.
Your speed claim only raises a question about the duration, accuracy of the sample, the conditions, and the efficiency of the actual boat. Fifteen years ago, I could routinely pace and gain on power boats in the no wake zone posted at 6 mph for a measured (+/-) .3 miles. I believe I could do it in the 145 Tsunami (5.8 mph hull speed) and definitely did so in the 175 Tsunami, but couldnât find any notation in my logs, because I just viewed it as typical. Relating that performance data today as factual is a problem. Although I record tide and conditions, my inability to link it too specific trips means I donât know if the tide was with me or against me. As far as boats, 6 mph means I either pushed the 14 ft boat by .2 mph over the hull speed, or it was .2 mph under. The actual hull speed is irrelevant.
I donât doubt youâre assertions, but based on my personal experience and detailed performance records, Iâm curious about those unknown factors.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, the original formula is essentially an equation that only applies to early displacement hulls designs. Typical of scientific studies, knowledge evolves, innovators study shapes in nature to create more efficient forms, boat builders copy and improve on designs by trial and error, and more detailed equations are formulated along with computer aided designs to factor in more parameters to refine the model. However, that requires the input of more accurate coefficients, constants, variables, and so on, for the equation to work. Most paddlers have neither the time, nor interest to arrive at the answer, especially when the archaic âhull speed formulaâ and the chart gives a starting point to come up with a WAG. That lets the shopper follow a basic rule, but the answer is really in taking the boat out on the water and testing it.
My suggestion to anyone interested in measuring performance is to at least buy a bicycling GPS that you can find for around $50(?). If you canât deck mount it, protecting it in a waterproof case (if it isnât already âwaterproofâ and not just âresistantâ). I know kayakers who deck mount a phone, but I donât want to expose a high value device to salt water, risk losing it, having it operate actively for 2 to 8 hours (that causes screen burn-in and drains the battery), and risk overheating in the sun (mine shut down for about 30 minutes to avoid permanent damage). Instead, I rely on a dedicated deck mounted GPS, while the phone stored in a waterproof Pelican case is attached to the seat strap or a D-ring on my PFD, where it operates in stand-by mode to preserve the battery for for emergencies. By the way, a GPS or phone app is valuable for guiding assistance to your location if youâre a solo paddler and need help.
Despite the shortcoming noted about GPS accuracy, the devices available tiday are hard to beat. For those who say speed isnât everything or remark, âWho cares!â It apparently matters enough if youâve actually read the post this far.
@Jyak you are absolutely right and itâs something I never think about because I âjust do itâ but in doing It;s all about energy management for me within my conditioning and strength. Iâve come to know what my race profile and speeds are and what my all day paddling profile is.
in the 175 - for 15 miles (3 hours) it was 5 mph. for 3 miles its 5.8 mph. one is sustainable for hours the other is sustainable for minutes (around 30 ish to be specific.) after that I need a breather.
My run last Saturday, Stayed Aerobic, so in theory I could have gone longer than the 3.9 miles I did but was running out of daylight so I stopped there. So the training even though reduced for medical reasons is paying off.
but youâre right. I am managing energy without thinking really about it.
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@kanoniem, keep in mind that your boat doesnât play by the same rules as the typical displacement hull. As with a catamaran or a planing hull, it breaks the rules of the hull speed âformula,â not âhull speedâ as a concept. Just as Craig is beating or at least catching similar specialty boats. The performance not related ti hull speed of the boat but to his power and technique. Which brings me to a periferal tipic, and that is paddling technique, paddle length and blade area, overall paddle length and swing weight.
I respect the opinions rendered elsewhere about the desired or best paddle length, the preference for high or low angle technique, as well as which is best suited for either technique or for both, and the best cadence. That largely depends on the strength, physical size, muscle distribution, and an individualâs conditioning, endurance, etc. Ultimately, itâs a personal bias.
However, I canât resist mentioning that Iâve found most of that is nothing more than a matter of personal comfort. Testing of my various paddles has not really shown much in favor of a specific feature. Primarily, I canât efficiently paddle extreme high angle due to my shoulder limitations and arthritic pain. Therefore, my high angle is merely a revised higher version of low angle technique. My physical stature makes any paddle under 230 cm inconvenient and uncomfortable, because it limits my reach. A 240 cm paddle works fine, and I donât see any speed advantage or difference in control; however, the longer paddle allows me to open the grip for better unrestricted breathing. Paddling a 230 cm Ikelos that provides an additional 10 sq inches of blade didnât seemnti interfer with my aerobic threshold, cadence, or speed; it was just not comfortable to reach. However, that made me think that if the added surface area didnât affect my cadence, neither should a 260 cm. Unfortunately, 4 month later and still jot delivery. Despite my efforts and a definite preference for a specific brand, style and model of paddle, while pouring over my logs that list boats, conditions and destination, partners and the boat they use, as well as paddles and trip duration, I canât link a paddle design to any speed advantage or disadvantage.
My assumption is reinforced by data and perceptions exchanged with @szihn, who has used more paddle types than I could shake a 2x4 at. From a snow shovel to homemade Greenland paddles, it appears that the performance results are not significantly influencial, other than his personal preference based on perception.
Right or wrong, that leads me to suggest that paddles are not the answer to speed. An experienced paddler can definitely tweek out a few additional tenths of a mph, by using a specific style of paddle, but my guess is that the outcome is more about refining the paddling technique than the tool.
The Euro paddle is bracketed by the Greenland style paddle on one side and the wing paddle on the other extreme, but only by degrees. Surely, a good wing will outperform a Greenland for speed, but that gap can be narrowed by refining technique. I will admit that by studying the form of a proper wing paddle stroke, i adapted it to my Euro technique. Rather than accept the suggestion that the wing paddle performs like an airplane wing - that it provides lift, I believe it has more to do with the exit at the end of the power blade and the set up for the catch. While the Greenlands channel water off the trailing edge to reduce flutter (while the Aleuts use ridge), the Euros incorporate dihedral, and the wing controls flutter with a rudimentary airfoil. The angle of attack can be varied to some degree to moderate effort, which is like a variable pitch propeller on an airplane. Whatever! I could be wrong.
Ohhhh okay. Thatâs in an Epic! No wonder, LOL. I have no doubt that a high-performance boat like that (with razor-sharp entry) can go faster than my 65lb plastic Tempest. 
Important to specify the kind of boat weâre talking about!
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When you started posting and we started comparing noted about the Tsunami, I was shocked when you described your paddling technique which is totally opposite mine.
I couldnât conceive your ability to sustain what I considered to be a full on anerobic effort. Not enough time to explore it publically. Iâm not sure I could offer any suggestion to improve you performance, but since your son is a powerful paddler who prefers low angle, Iâd like to paddle with him a bit to exhange ideas.
It would also be interesting to compare his new model 145 x 25.5" Tsunami to the 145 x 24.5" model. Iâd also like to compare the 175 Tsunami by testing the 180 Tepest Pro.
I had to go back and do a double take as well.
Fascinating discussion! (To me anyway, LOL.) @Jyak - great explanation of hull speed formula and how power output has to go up significantly to climb up and out of the bow wake. Thatâs definitely been my experience in both my Tsunami 165 and Tempest 170: even in dead-calm water and no wind, Iâll paddle smoothly and efficiently as hard as I can comfortably sustainâŚand occasionally Iâve tried an all-out sprint, 100% max effort for 30 secondsâwhile keeping an eye on my GPS speedâandâŚI might see a 0.1mph increase. Suggesting that with my body weight of around 215lbs, Iâm pretty much at what for me is the boatâs maximum sustainable speed of just over 5mph (maybe 5.1 or 5.2 tops).
I should also add that Iâm using a 230cm, all-carbon straight-shaft Werner Camano paddle. And Iâm 5â11" tall.
Regarding grip and angle, I paddle âwide and high.â I find it much more efficient and comfortable to keep my hands about 2" from the throat of the blade on both sides. (My hands are typically brushing the surface of the water.) It lets me keep my arms straighter at the catch and early part of the stroke. Occasionally I try slipping my hands up to where most recreational paddlers grip (the 90-degree arms thing), and Iâm shocked by how much less power I have to the bladesâŚbut maybe I just donât know how to paddle that way? LOL
Anyway, as you have pointed out Jyak, there are a LOT of variables!
I enjoy reading the exchanges here.
However I would draw a parallel to comparison of:
A 1 ton 4WD Pickup
A Ranger pickup,
A 4 door family sedan,
A 2 door Porsche
A top-fuel dragster
A Honda Gold Wing
And a Kawasaki 650 dirt bike.
Of that list above ------------ which is best?
Answering my question with a better question is âbest for what?â
And in the world of kayaks (and their similarities and differences) we should acknowledge that speed is not the only factor considered in the design of kayaks and in most cases is one of the lesser factors in order of importance. If that statement was wrong ALL kayaks would be some form of serf sky or as close as measurements would allow. Stability and cargo capacity would not be considered at all.
John makes an excellent point. Learning good technique is going to be foundational in propelling for ALL types of kayaks.
When I first started I had my eyes opened a few times by more experienced paddlers who had smaller paddles and in one case a wider and heavier kayak who paddles away from me like I was stuck in 1st gear.
Why?
WellâŚbecause I was stick in 1st gear! I just didnât know it yet. 2nd gear, 3 gear and 4th gear in a kayak are all about learning how to paddle. Now I am far faster in âeasy modeâ then I was in ârace modeâ 5 years ago. And going that much faster, I feel like I am using 1/3 the amount of energy.
Last year on the Wind River I was paddling a 10.5 foot Old Town Loon in an outing with 8 of my friends and we ran into a cluster of people who launched into the river at a different place. One had a Current Designs kayak, borrowed from a friend, and it was obvious to me he didnât have any coaching at all in correct paddle form. I and my wife (both of us have identical Loons) shot past him like he was anchored. We all met farther down stream as we stopped to eat some snacks and he and I got to talk for about 30 minutes. He was a very nice man with a ton of time in motor boats but zero in a kayak (his 1st time ever was that day) So I told him to swap boats with me and let me paddle his CD and to watch me as I came toward him, and after I passed him. I just demonstrated how to do good torso rotation and NOT bend my elbows in the power stroke. (I call it âFranken-paddlingâ. After that My group left and his group left a shot time later. At the days end we met again. By then he was moving that 16+ foot CD faster then I was my Loon. JUST with 10 minutes of instruction and a quick demo of torso rotation, (trunk twisters as I explained it to him) and what was great to him is ----- he was âkind-daâ hacking at the water in the morning and in the late after noon he was doing about 50 strokes per minutes but with a long steady arc and powering it with his body and by then he was obviously able to pass me and my wife.
THATâS how much difference good technique makes. I canât say he was âgoodâ by dayâs end, but he was WAY better then at the start of the day and was not getting worn out.
So to the degree that improvement of the personâs ability is elevated is the same degree the kayak will become a better tool, a better craft, for your enjoyment. And thatâs regardless of the kayak you use. A Sit on top fishing kayak, open cockpit rec kayak, fast sea kayak or racing ski. ALL will be more fun for you if you learn to step up the skill level.
Concentrating on building skill is NEVER a bad idea. In getting better, youâll be better at paddling ALL kayaks. With paddling (and most other arears of endeavor in, life) improving oneself is never a bad idea. It may not be super important but it always helps and itâs never harmful.
Iâve neglected by exploration in favor ormf repetition over the same course which is ideal for testing concepts. Weather patterns around here can get into a rut with wind speed and direction. That allows me to test technique and assess how a different boat, paddle or approach impacts performance, because tides change by around 45 minutes every day. That means sometimes I can time a trip to be goingbwith wind and tide, then a week later I might he able to time it so the tide and wind are contrary to each other, or manage to hit at least half of it during slack tide.
As I highlighted in other posts, hull length impacts more than just hull speed. Length heavily influences paddling effort in riding with or against waves. When I find conditions are a repeat of a previous trip, I just change the timing to match tidal flow. Thats how I can test the performance of the 145 against the 175.
South winds at my test spot have a 100 mile plus fetch. When the winds exceed 15 mph, the waves on the second leg can really grow on the 2nd half of the course. Although the 175 is consistently about .2 to .3 mph faster on average, the 145 canât bridge the waves like the 175. The shorter hull tethers on the peak and plunges into the passing trough, where the hull acts like it hit the hull speed and doesnât want to accelerate. Without a GPS, most paddlers think theyâre on a fast leg with that trailing wind and waves, but the conditions create a fast ride of short duration, until the wave passes, then a prolonged wallow.
For example, an avg speed in the 145 of 4.8 mph might result in speed peaks on the down wind leg that peak at 7.1, 7.3, then 8.3 mph, depending on the cycle of the wave sets. However, the interval in the trough might drop to speeds between 2.6 and 3.9 mph for much longer than the sleigh ride. A paddler like @sing probably cares less about the speed or the wallow for two reasons. Primarily, the thrill is probably in assessing conditions, selecting the best wave out of the wave cycle, setting up the ride, then following through. Technique and control decides the thrill, which if you execute right will end at the beach. Riding waves on the Gunpowder leg go on for two miles and build higher the further you go. They build but never really curl or break like on a beach, which is why the Tsunami is ideal, because itâs ample width adds stability and improves tracking. Peaking over 8 mph on the wave can be done without bracing, but the boat starts to get touchy.
Thereâs a cutoff point wher the 145 just stops performing, because it wallows in the trough more and the speed drop off is greater. The speed difference offered by the 3 feet additional feet in length makes the difference of a 3.8 mph avg speed and a 4.6 avg speed over 8.5 miles. That is far more significant than the effect hull length has on speed. Most paddlers approach speed from the perspective that itâs just about going faster, but compounding that .8 mph difference over 20 miles is significant. Paddling at hull speed is a waste of energy reserves. Dropping by as little as .2 mph, can hurt overall speed, but thatâs where a more favorable use of effort could gain .4 mph elsewhere, without requiring more energy than the paddler can muster. The solution is not to push harder for a limited speed gain, because the effort is like pushing into the range where hull speed becomes exponentially greater. I have no doubt you appreciate the dilemma and surely realize that the answer isnât more speed, itâs to moderate speed. Trade time to conserve energy, unless time isnât a commodity. Whether a new kayaker cares about such finite speed tips, my hope is that new paddlers better understand energy management. Craig has a very different strategy that respinds to his conditioning and muscle groups. His son is nearly as capable and places highly in races, but when he paddled with us, he paddled our pace rather than his. That is why I prefer to paddle alone or with a person who has internalized the mechanism of propulsion.
I tried following the thread on cadence but am not sure of goal. In my mind, cadence is linked to the paddlers aerobic threshold. The paddle length combined with surface area/dihedral/cant establishes the cadence. Conditioning and refinined technique enhances cadence potential, but first the shaft hast to be long enough for a powerful but controlled swing. A clean catch is like thrusting with a fencing foil. A good catch is a clean catch that minimizes splashing. It should be places rather than grabbed, and follow through without the blade oscillating up and down through the draw stroke, fluttering to alternately dump water, or generate bubbles. All that inducates to me that the paddle is being powered far more than it can tolerate to move the boat. If the paddler focuses on a point of reference at the catch, paddle slippage will probably be apparent. Cadence is a result, not a goal
There was a time when my solution to kayaking was applying more power. That works, but only until you suffer infirmaries or dwindling power reserves. I can no longer hit the peak speeds that I managed 20 years ago, but I can hit higher average speeds more consistently.
I appreciate you comment. Sorry that this is a bit off base, but I hope it helps someone to fret less while trying to go furher and focus on efficiency to get more progress for the effort. If you find yourself paddling then resting youâre just overworking your muscle groups. A good cadence is like rocking a baby. It must be smooth, rythemic, and constant. The higher your efficient cadence, the longer your glide and the less speed degradation that youâll need to make up as the glide deteriorates. Its not hard. Just connect with the kayak and feel the rythem of the glide.
More great comments. @szihn love your name âFranken-paddlingâ for good techniqueâthatâs a good description! LOL
As I mentioned elsewhere, the vast majority of recreational kayakers I know and see, just donât seem to understand that you can paddle a kayak hard and fast. Many of them seem to think that kayaking = lilydipping, period. Cracks me up. (I even see a lot of people with beautiful high-performance $5,000 composite sea kayaksâŚand they lilydip all the time! Each to their ownâŚ)
Whatâs interesting is the degree of crossover in good technique between canoeing and kayaking technique. I spent years as a canoeist (including slalom racing in a C-1)âŚand most of the things you strive for in a good canoeing stroke are the same as a good kayaking stroke: rotating to extend your reach at the catch, rotating back (âunwinding your coreâ) on the forward stroke, striving for a clean, quiet catch (no splashing), not applying power too soon on the catch, etc.
@Jyak - you talked about how reducing speed by .1 or .2mph may be more efficient. I think about this a lot! And one thing Iâve long wondered about but never tested (cuz Iâm lazy, LOL) isâŚhow much more efficient would it be (if at all) to pause a few tenths of a second between strokes? The idea of course being to take a powerful forward stroke, then let the boat glide while you take a âmicro-restâ before the next forward stroke. Seems like you could potentially save a lot of energy doing this.
Then thereâs the whole straight-shaft vs. bent-shaft thing. Iâve been pondering buying a bent-shaft paddle for a while, but I guess Iâve been pretty happy with my straight-shaft Werner Camano. I often ponder, though, whether a bent shaft actually produces any more power on the forward stroke? Or is it purely an âergonomic convenience?â
And yet another variable is the rudder vs. skeg thing. Iâve said elsewhere that (admittedly without hard data to prove it) I believe even if you are an excellent paddler with great technique, you will absolutely expend more energy steering a boat with a skeg than with a rudder. Iâve been paddling my Tempest (with a skeg) now for a year, and this becomes more obvious all the time. (Because even the best-designed touring kayakin the world with a flawless skeg still requires some degree of steering with your paddle.) And I say this having world-class steering techniqueâmy forward stroke may not be perfect, but Iâm a master at incorporating subtle draws and sweeps into my strokes and subtly feathering the blade for just a little bit of turning effect. And even when youâre a master at it, it takes energy to do.
As an aside, I had some long discussions about this in the West Coast Paddlers forumâŚand several people pointed out that many of the most hardcore long-distance expedition kayakers in the world use rudders. I think when it comes to the âsaving energyâ issue, that pretty much kills skegs dead, LOL.
This was even more obvious to me when after paddling my Tempest for months, I took my Tsunami 165 (with a rudder) out one day. I was amazed at how much easier it was to only paddle forward, and never even think about changing my forward stroke at all to steer.
Scott
I see the ability to move a kayak to near itâs max speed as an asset to be used when needed and to be practiced a little every trip out to maintain that ability.
But speaking for myself only, I probably do more lilly-dipping then sprinting. And by far the most paddling I do is somewhere in-between. I LIKE being out on the water and âgetting thereâ is not something I often focus on because there is not really a âthereâ to get to. I go out for multi day trips and even in those times I have no specific destinations to get to. I want to paddle and see things and hug the shores or cross the lakes and see âwhatâsover thereâ, stop and brew up coffee and maybe eat a bit of something ---- as I admire the view.
But I know that there are (and have been a few) times when I **"wanna-git-outta-Dodge"**. In running like a yellow coward away from a wind shear and stinging hail, or getting out of the way of an oncoming power boat I like being able to get close to hull-speed. But once I am off the bulls-eye I slow down and the need to sprint is past. So enduring a sprint (or as close as I can get to one) for 30 minutes or a few hours seems to be doing the exact opposite of my set mission. That being-- to be out there enjoying myself.
And I prefer skegs to rudders, but I canât argue that you do need some paddle control with skegs if the current and/or wind is strong enough and at the angles it is most obvious. A rudder gives a constant drag to keep you on track, but also that drag will slow you down some. I personally could not care less. Having spoken to 5 kayakers who are WAAAAAY more experienced then I do in very open ocean conditions, they have all told me that the beginnerâs mistake in rising wind and waves it to try to go fast. SLOW DOWN and maintain good control is what all tell me. Sure you may get in later, but you get in. Going fast can wear you out and if you get real fatigued you are more likely to make a mistake that will flip you over. But if you go at a speed that keeps you stable and gets you to land you are better off, even if you get to land 30 minutes or an hour latter then you may have planned. It reminds me of driving in snow. You do NOT try to drive faster to get home before it gets too deep. Slow down and maintain control.
I have 2 kayaks with rudders. In the worst conditions I have to admit a rudder is REALLY nice to have . I love my skegs better, for 49 time in 50, but that 50th time a rudder is worth itâs weight in gold.
My old Sea Lion (now for sale) has a rudder and my Jara has one too. The Jara come with both, skeg and rudder. And the design of that rudder is wonderful in that itâs âquick-detachableâ. I dislike how itâs up in the air when not deployed, but I cut the retraction line and tied loops in the 2 ends. I put a short loop of line with 2 large fishing snaps in the center so the total length is the same as it was before I cut it. I can use my Leatherman to unscrew the 2 clevisâs in about 30 seconds and un-snap one of the 2 fishing snaps and by rotating the rudder 90 degrees is simply lifts off the kayak. So for the majority of the time it âlivesâ in the hold. But if the skyâs look like they may want to play hocky and use me as the puck, I take about 30-45 second and re-attach the rudder. Itâs spring loaded so by simply removing the retraction line it from the clam-cleat next to the cockpit, itâs in the water and I am good as gold. An easy pull on the line and the rudder come up. Overall I am liking it so far. But itâs a new kayak to me so I am in the learning process now.
I prefer the skeg for the large majority of the time. But a rudder is simply wonderful when itâs simply wonderfulâŚ, and for my Jara itâs just not there at all ----- when I donât want it to be.
A lot of things click for me with this thread. @szihn and I started DM after he sough info about paddling to keep up with group paddles. I learned a lot about his background, kayak experience, paddle preference and technique. It wasnât long before I came to realize he was already far faster than he realized, and probably faster than me. He described paddling his 17â x 21" Chatham until it felt like climbing a hill and falling back, whether using his âbigâ paddle, the Eagle Ray, the Kalliste or his homemade 4" x 9â Indigenous paddle. Yet he has no interest in going fast. Good grief!
Kayaking is an incredible activity that can fulfill social needs, physical conditioning, transportation, or stress relief. Participation ranges from minimal investment to reaching for the sky. Whether fully kitted out or just a t-shirt and shorts, you can float in a pond while sharing a peaceful moment with a friend, hug the shore exploring nature, chase challenging adventures, carry camping gear for an outing, try your hand at racing, immerse yoursel in formal training programs, or learn through trial and error. The quality of your gear only prepares you for the safe exercise of the craft and the degree of efficency or comfort you desire.
The gear is largely a matter of choice, your approach can be aggressive or laid back. I donât care how immersed another paddler wants to be engaged in kayaking. All are welcome. Iâm comfortsble with my level of skill and have no need for external recognition. I set the challenge and exchange info to gain insight and to share. The day I give it up will be due to a lack of interest or to pursue better challenges or entertainment.
My inquisituve nature compels me to learn from the activity, to enjoy it, and to grow with it. I have no interest in further technical challenges or fighting the boat. Thatâs the beauty of kayaking,. The forum enables us all of us to be alone together. There it is!
My approach to the kayak and paddling technique is very minimalist - stable boat and a light paddle, because I want the experience to be transparent.
My preferred paddle is the Kalliste because it feels light to hold and swing. After my paddling technique had evolved, I was demonstrating technique and noticed that my catch slipped into the water without a splash. The exit also apparently had become a natural consequence of focusing exclusively on the catch.
Critique of the low angle techique raised my awareness about excessive yaw. Increased cadence seemed a logical solution since it quickly counter the power on one side with power on the opposite side. That helped to reduce the influence of yaw as the cadence became more consistent and the stroke rate increased. The rythemic swing also rotated the hull, which served as edging. By moderating the edge, it became possible to interdict the yaw before it fully crossed the line of the boat. Paddling and tracking became automatic in the 145 Tsunami. I canât manage that same degree of control in the 175 Tsunamu once the winds build over around 10 mph. Thatâs where weather cocking starts to influece the 175. Prior to that, the 175 behaves like the 145. Once the rudder engaged, I rely exclusively on it for tracking. However, it feels crude in comparison to edging. I prefer to rely on only one method of directional control at a time. Probably because I lack the coordination to integrate multiple techniques. I rely on paddle strokes primarily for propulsion and rarely use them for directional control. I rarely use skulling strokes, braces or reversing strokes unless necessary.
Whatever technique works is fair game and edging, paddle strokes, rudders and skegs are all available and viable options. No debate. However, each has a distinct advantage such as a easy learning curve and effectiveness. Disadvantages could include added cost and weight, complication for storage and transportation, compexity, lost hold space, possible damage or failure when needed most, and it can negate the incentive to master edging technique which is an effective skill to know. However, not all kayaks need a skeg or a rudder to turn or track; it largely depends on the boat, as well as the userâs skill level and intended use of the boat.
I favor the low angle paddling technique primarily because it reduces the range of motion for lifting combined weight of the arm and paddle. The transition from the end of the power phase and the catch is significantly shorter, which combined with the greater sweep from a longer paddke and the time spent power actually delivering power, can easily compensates for the typical smaller area of the touring style blade. You memtion a pause, but rather than interrupting the rythem, my strayegy is to remain on glide. Iâve played with paddling effort at a higher cadence.and perceive an advantage, up to the point that the boat approaches the hull speed.
An observation from watching Craig is that the feathered blade appears to help with a clean exit. While its hard for me to actually follow his execution, the result is effective in reducing the water run off to drips, rather than lifting and flinging water. However, that pricess is too much like work for me
The advantage of a straight shaft is consistency. When gliding on twisting salt marsh trails,I resort to long, effective sweeps by holding the paddle tip.like s Greenland paddle on hairpin turns. A longer straight shaft give an option to spread my hands which opens the rib cage to facilitate breathing, especially when anticipating going above the aerobic threshold, or to recover with cleansing breaths. The bent shafts helps with some mitigate wrist issues, but I believe a proper wide grip and locking the hands in the paddlers box can reduce strain on the wrists. A simple, consistent grip with a properly balanced paddle and core rotation helps master technique. I get a callous only on the mid joint of the right index finger, so Iâm favoring some aspect of the stroke.