Greg, I have seen your posts several times, and without fail, they are always comprehensive, informative and well thought out. I read your blog, and one aspect I think would be important to point out is in regards to your assessment of the wing paddle as being inherently harder on shoulders, I don’t think this is necessarily true if the stroke is done properly.
The picture you included on your blog immediately stood out to me as having your shoulder too high for the stroke.
Have a look at the pic of Max Hoff. He is the current world record holder in the 1000 meter. His shoulders are noticeably lower and more relaxed. If you’ll notice, he is bending at the elbow and raising his hand higher–using a 90 degree (ish) bend to achieve the higher height in order to get the vertical entry. Elbows should always remain lower than the shoulder–I found out the hard way.
I’ve had a problem with this myself and have had to spend a good bit of attention to rectify.
Good technique on the wing need not be hard on shoulders and it will simultaneously make for faster and more efficient overall paddling.
Water at depth behaves differently to water on the surface.
—Not exactly sure how this would be so, unless you’re talking about wave-making.
(A bit of physics here) The lift from a Wing paddle is in the direction of travel of the craft…
—The net force on a wing paddle blade that is working well has a sizeable component in the direction of travel (called lift by you, me and others, but it should probably be called thrust), but there is also a significant downward component that makes the blade want to dive (and capsize the boat) and a somewhat less-noticeable lateral component that induces yaw. The nature of the stroke is such that the net force vector is fully 3D and varies in magnitude and direction during the stroke.
I’ll echo others who disagree with the characterization of the GP as a lily-dipping paddle. Using a GP without canting and torso rotation is missing the point of the paddle.
On the function of a wing–Yes, it generates lift. In order to generate the lift, you have to first “catch” the water, “lock” the blade (because if it “slips”–you cannot generate lift) and then power the boat through the fixed spot on the water via the pivot point–which will move away from hull as the blade turns over and spills the locked water.
— unfortunately, I’m afraid none of this is accurate. This is just not how paddles work, wing or otherwise.
I’m not the elite fluid-mechanics expert that Carldelo is. I’m just a regular guy with no special training who looks for evidence of how applied forces work. I like to point out how if you carefully look at the water behind ANY paddler, you can see patches of moving, swirling water that remain in motion for several minutes after their boat has gone by. There’s nothing remotely “locked” about the water where their paddle blades were acting, and I can’t imagine what a person might do to cause the water at the point of blade insertion to become “less watery”. I do a lot of rowing, so on a really calm day, I can actually see those paired swirls trailing off into the distance behind me. That’s a lot of water set in motion by my propulsive efforts.
If you think you are going to race or compete then the wing paddle is the way to go. But if you go that way expect a learning curve. Understanding it in theory is one thing, mastering it on the water is something entirely different. In a sense, most of us are always still on the learning curve with it to become more efficient. I personally use a wing paddle for even my recreational paddles because the efficiency of it is just silly to give up. But if racing or pure efficiency is not the main objective, then explore other options. Oh, and know that the wing blades come in different surface areas/sizes so get one that doesn’t yank your shoulders out from their sockets. I learned that lesson the hard way. The big blades are great for short sprints but not for long distances. Have a fun time trying them all! https://davethekayaker.com/2015/12/04/enter-the-wing-paddle/
Mountainpaddler, Thanks for your views. I’m using a Euro in that image, but I don’t particularly like that image much either as the blade is not yet fully planted and even with a wing, I don’t like my upper hand higher than my chin, I also prefer for the elbows to be below the shoulders. That said, Max is also showing much more arm lift than GP technique employs. I strongly believe that a stroke that employs a lot of arm lift is going to stress the shoulders more than a lower stroke, over many miles, as you are simply lifting more weight per stroke.
This is more related to technique (including how widely you hold the paddle) than the paddle type itself. Even people like Oscar are now teaching much lower arm positions with a wing with the shoulders kept in a more compact position.
For long distance I hold a wing with a narrower hand width than standard and also hold the paddle lower, as described in the blog. You lose some speed but do gain stability and a stroke that is easier to maintain over many hours or days.
An added point, for long distance kayaking, I think that many people use wings that are much too large. It’s common to see people using a mid-wing in 300 miles races that are more suited for fast 10 - 20 milers, IMO. Even a small-mid-wing is a fairly large blade to my preference. I prefer much smaller wings (e.g. Gara Odin Small). Lee McGregor impressed this into me in training that I took with him. Unless you are sprinting, the smaller blades will move you along just as fast, once up to speed.
Greenland kayakers might also enjoy experimenting with parallel wing blade shapes, as like a GP, the power takes a moment to build, unlike the common teardrop wing shapes. Teardop shape wing blades are known for strong front-loaded power, but with less stability at the end of the stroke. Parallel wings have a more linear power band and some feel they are easier on the body than the teardrop shapes. That said, this is all personal preference. I recently ordered a Meek small G-series parallel wing, to experiment more with parallel wings.
gstamer–you’re right, Max is showing a higher arm than most G-paddlers. The marathon K1 and surfski paddlers tend to drop a bit more. I’ve never really looked to see how those guys compare to standard GP. I don’t have any experience with GP but find them very interesting. I would like to try one for rolling sometime. Like to hear what you think of the Meek. They seem to be a hit down under.
carldelo and Guideboatguy, Like I said, I don’t pretend to be a professor of hydrodynamics. I’m a paddler, primarily interested in racing–which makes me hyper-focused on the application of the best tools in an optimized fashion. I definitely don’t come to P-com to engage in scholastic debates. I acknowledge that everyone has their own unique reasons for paddling, but this is where my attention goes. With that being said, I am mostly interested in others that have placed their focus into the application of paddling performance.
So with this in mind, have a look at the attached video. If you don’t want to watch the whole thing, watch from 38 seconds through 1:00.
This is coming from a Ph.D and one of the most renowned Olympic coaches in the game today. He is the architect of several gold medals and has spent a lifetime involved in the sport. If you get a chance, have a look at the whole series of videos–they are well worth it!
Anyway, thanks for your input. Always a pleasure to hear other’s opinions and exchange ideas.
Cheers!
I would say that the word “lock” is an unfortunate and misleading term. All they are really doing during that “locking” process is doing their best to maximize lift (thrust produced in-line with the boat), and they could have simply explained it in such terms. While process will reduce or eliminate backward slippage of the blade as compared to a stationary point in space (do it extremely well and the blade could even move forward), the forward-backward position of the blade is still not stationary with regard to the water around it because that water has been set into motion by the force applied to it, and during that actual process there is what you could call “slippage” (without that slippage, the blade would move dramatically forward during that outward slicing motion, but that is not what happens). Carldelo can explain it better, but that’s how I interpret the “lock”.
I’ve read a comparison where the wing was adding 3% speed vs Euro. Pretty much negligible unless you are racing. Nevertheless I’m using a small-mid all the time (flat water, not white) as it’s forcing me to use torso and leg drive. It’s also lighter and more “cool” than my Euro’s.
To me bracing is a little less easy with a wing than Euro. Need a bit more practice.
I’d say if you are in a condition where there is a real risk of capsizing and need to roll, have to brace a lot - use an Euro paddle that day.
One should also distinguish between a low angle Euro and a high angle Euro. The high angle Euro stroke is similar (not identical) to a wing stroke, while the low angle Euro is similar to the GP stroke. While the GP or low angle Euro can be used in a high stroke, this is not ideal either. Similarly, a wing or high angle Euro can be used low, but again not ideal.
@gjf12 said:
One should also distinguish between a low angle Euro and a high angle Euro. The high angle Euro stroke is similar (not identical) to a wing stroke, while the low angle Euro is similar to the GP stroke. While the GP or low angle Euro can be used in a high stroke, this is not ideal either. Similarly, a wing or high angle Euro can be used low, but again not ideal.
Sorry…I disagree with most of this. The only similarity between a High angle Euro stroke and a High wing stroke is the approximate entry point. Every other aspect is different. {and the forces in play and the path the paddle takes, are also different} Also the low angle Euro stroke has very little similarities to a canted Greenland stroke. {with a lenticular faced GP} The Greenland paddle has more in common with the wing , than with any Euro unless you are talking exclusively about a Betsy Bay style Paddle…{flat faced paddle} The GP works very well in a High angle stroke also. A low angle wing stroke has more in common with a low angle Greenland stroke {canted, lenticular faced GP} and has similar forces at play.
